Wales faces decades of Conservative rule – will the left-wing majority back independence?

One of the problems as I see it (living in Prestatyn) is that here it is hardly even Wales, there are so many people that have moved here from over the border (at least 50% of our population) . A lot of them (not all) go on behaving and feeling like they are still in England. We voted like England did yesterday. How would we get them to support independence?

I agree with this article. I believe we are at a vital crossroads in the history of the nation of Wales, the mainstream media is already saying "Scotland and ENGLAND going in very different directions" not "Scotland and the REST OF UK". We need to start giving Wales a louder voice, look how much attention Scotland garner. We have a choice, integration with england and the loss of our identity and even greater imposed poverty or stand up and make our voice heard, MAKE WALES MATTER

Drop the left - right distinction as it is far too simplistic. What we have in Cardiff Bay purports to be left wing, in reality on a good day it is just about mildly so. Plaid tries to outdo it by adopting stances but to us ordinary punters out in the communities it reeks of pseudo-socialism, posturing for effect. The truth is many of our present cadre of politicians don't even like the public, they much prefer mixing with their own kind and selected "professional classes". We need to get together instead of fostering further divisions when any prospect of independence is quite remote as things stand. Cliques and factional instincts aimed at "Owning" the embryo and placing too many barriers to alternative thought is one way of making sure the thing never happens.

The westminster government will now drive British nationalism. I suspect the move towards independence to stall and wouldnt be surprised if the next Welsh Parliament elections see a large number of Unionist and end devolution AMs elected l. On the 1st of Feb, for millions, Brexit will be done and Johnson must give them a massive 'make britain great again' party, so they don't notice their services are being savaged. Distraction is Johnsons go to strategy.

Er some of us on the left made that choice a long time ago and have been supporters of Welsh independence for decades

We now need a serious discussion about the ins and outs of independence. Public consultations to bring the subject fully into the public consciousness. Brexit will hurt us but the good thing is it will make self determination more palatable as a result. Scotland and Northern Ireland going their own way will also heighten awareness for independence., we must grasp these positives.. With decades of a right wing Westminster now very much a possiblity - we must break free and forge our own path to prosperity or find ourselves permanently in poverty.

"The population is at the same time moving politically towards independence and, as yesterday’s results show, towards greater political integration into England." Its possible to resolve this. The answer for Wales is to use labels the English will accept ie (1) adopt a British model for Indy = 'Dominion Status' and (2) 'self-expression' rather than 'socialist'. Dominion Status is how all UK colonies got whatever Indy they now possess, so go for it. The Queen won't mind. And free the Welsh to express their aspirations. Work out what they actually are. They won't be fascist, so don't worry. Free the Welsh!

Any discussion based on the assumption that all those who voted for Labour and Plaid Cymru are socialists is pointless.

The points made in this article seem a bit antiquated. This left right thing is sooo 1986 and the constant narrow minded anti torysim and anti conservatism is tiring and holds Wales and the Welsh independence movement back. All under one banner really should mean that. And what does the tired old trope of internationalism really mean? Anyone who does their research knows that it is a fluffy word dreamt up by globalists for well intentioned dupes to bring in a system of global power run and owned by transnational corporations - a system that would not want to see Wales and Welsh nationhood last for a day if it had its way

There's some fallacious assumptions made here. The author seems to believe that a Boris Johnson administration will be a form of rightish tyranny, and that Wales's only option is now to go in the polar opposite direction on the left. It reinforces some memes i've seen trending today that Wales has to respond to Johnson's win by chasing the moral high ground, i.e that only full-blown Welsh socialism can really be the proper repudiation of the new Prime Minister. I've no time for Johnson at all, but there's really precious little evidence that he is an intolerant right winger. Indeed, if you look at his record as London Mayor for two terms, he proved to be quite a pragmatic 'let' s get things done' type of politician, rather than an ideologue. My concerns about Johnson(from a Welsh Independence perspective) is that he may well be serious about his vision of a renewed one nation conservatism, reaching out to places that the Tories have not dared to go for a couple of generations. In that respect, i believe he will be the UK's most ambitious politician since Thatcher. There's no point for nationalists in Wales to try and counter thiis threat by means of dreaming of a blunt form of socialism, just in order to differentiate ourselves. Rather it would be wiser perhaps to think about co-opting some of his one-nation conservatism, but to define it in a specific Welsh context which can resonate with people here e. g the importance of place, space and identity. At the end of the day, we don't want Welsh Independence because we are socialists or conservatives, we want Welsh Independence because we are a nation. We want the freedom to make our own way in the world, so flexibility and open-mindedness above ideology has to be the order of the day.

If you've previously always been on the Brit Left and are only now considering Welsh independence (begrudgingly) because you're dismayed at the prospect of 'decades of Conservative rule' and want to use Wales only as a laboratory for more experiments in 'woke' socialism, then you'd be backing independence for entirely the wrong reason.

What's the point of independence if it doesn't look to address inequality and unfairness _ to make this a better country for all who live within her borders? A smaller version of the UK holds no interest to me. To be alongside right wingers like Gwlad fighting the same ideological battles against them as we would the Tories in Westminster would be a waste of energy and time. I'm getting more Indy curious by the month but some of this text depresses me

1 Centre Left: In the original article I think you have made a fundamental mistake in terming Labour as centre-Left. They are not centre-left, they are left-wing (no centre) and under Corbyn they were far-left. 2 Conservatives: for Conservatives today Friday 13th of December was a truly beautiful day 3 Drakeford: was only supposed to be an interim caretaker leader, he is a very weak and ineffectual leader. 4 Senedd: this institution does not offer the kind of leadership necessary to run an Independent country. 5 Nationalism: Nationalism is the way forwards 6 Welsh Labour: haven't done much for Wales and we remain poor, in fact one of the poorest regions in Europe. Can Welsh Labour be incentivised to support Welsh National Independence. 7 The United Kingdom: ought to be dismantled and this is in the best interests of Scotland, Ireland and Wales 8 Plaid: Plaid's performance in General elections is very poor. Plaid's performance in assembly elections is very poor. The leadership of Plaid although new is also wrong. 9 This topic deserves a longer article or essay. The Independence movement lacks structure. It needs proper intellectuals behind it. The Welsh version of Dominic Cummings. Now you may not like Dominic but he has a track record of amazing achievements and that is what is required. 10 Westminster are about to spend the next 5 years frustrating the Independent Scotland process and for Wales it might be even more difficult. 11 IF you put it to the people in a referendum on Welsh Independence then considering the population densities in Newport, Cardiff, Swansea, then I do not think you would win a 50% majority. 12 Just read through all the commentary and the Dominion route is a good shout. It is true to say that Wales cannot and should not continue like this for another 10 or another 100 years. Continuing like this is intolerable and things have to change. 13 Welsh Independence should not be a Left wing thing only, it should be a broad church and an umbrella to encompass the full political spectrum. This is how you achieve mass market support.

It's important to remember that this election was only really about Brexit. Boris gambled that the people of the UK (including some who voted Remain in 2016) just want to get it over with; and he won. The other factor, as the world and his wife (including Johnson) could see, was the profound unelectability of Corbyn. The result was inevitable; so, for the same two reasons, were the Tory gains in Cymru. We'll have five years of continued austerity to the backdrop of ever-greater attempts at integration, disempowerment, and assaults on our culture, in all probability, but the next general election will produce a very different result because it will be fought for totally different reasons. Plaid Cymru backed the wrong horse, but for the right reasons, and the run-up between now and the Senedd elections in 2021 must be used effectively by Plaid and by Gwlad, Gwlad (who are an indy party and not a 'right-wing' party, Sian, notwithstanding their climate-change denial) to highlight the real problems that Wales faces and to talk sense to those who voted Conservative or Brexit Party this time. Remember, Brexit Party voters will probably have no Brexit Party to vote for after we leave the EU, so who's going to get their votes? It takes courage for an individual to change his/her mindset and cut the mental apron-strings and support independence; far easier to sit back, watch telly, and let those clever people in Westminster and Whitehall tell us what to do and think. Most Welsh people (including many of the young generation) have not yet experienced that epiphany, but these are the people whom the movement must convince, and who will ultimately decide the future of Wales. So please forget 'left', 'right' etc., put the ishoos in a little box, and get on with it, will you? You've got about 18 months in which to start making inroads. And you could start by using the Senedd as a genuine forum for debate on real and important issues, and not as a puppet-show, however limited its powers.

Och a gwae! The main thing now is maintaining the direction of travel, ie the Senedd needs to claim all of its legitimate devolved powers. Its also time to implement the boundary commission changes to Westminster elections for the 2024 general election. With the proviso that Anglesey remains a single island seat ie 30 welsh seats not 29. Without that change its unlikey the Senedd politics will ever take priority over Westminster and Yes Minister politics. At the same time we need to implement the increased number of Aelodau Seneddol/ Members of the Senedd MSs as proposed, approved and warranted by the large increase in Senedd business, responsibilities departments and ensuing committees. Virtually all current labour MSs are ministers or government post holders, chairs or even double post holders which is not healthy. The next five years will be Tory led from London, but also even in Wales the expanded tory MP voice will double welsh conservative influence. Its a party of pragmatism and common sense based on core tory values. Welsh tories will seek to be a major player in the next Senedd. They have certainly cut a very Welsh furrow of late. The not-yet-dead Brexit party may well be with us awhile yet in Wales due to PR. Years of EU wrangling and transitioning will ensure that the embers could glow for years. As for our labour Welsh government it will be one of only two actual power bases of Labour Socialism in the UK, perhaps even after the Senedd elections too. They desperately need to show they can do more on the welsh stage, as seen in train nationalisation and climate change. The other two parties Plaid and Lib Dems are fully committed to further devolution, and the loss of all Welsh Lib Dems at Westminster means the party really needs to welsh-up a bit or Lloyd Georges legacy will disappear. Something the ghastly Welsh green party failed to do by voting to remain an England-and Wales party in both name and fact. Its now a student uni green lobby, not a really a serious party as the Scottish Greens are. Plaid might wish to discuss the advantages of a broad church over a narrow chapel if it wishes to win and keep Rhondda, Cardiff, Blaenau Gwent and Llanelli, and the ever more cheshirised Clwydians. And a Wales cricket team is long overdue and well within the political gift of the Senedd.

In regards the Labour Party in Wales- Q: is change possible from Unionist remain and reformers to support for the dissolution of the UK? Could they follow the path of Maltese Labour Party leader Dom Mintoff who campaigned for a UK of GB, NI and Malta in the 1950's, then became an arch supporter of independence? I think- NO! (post election blues, maybe). Labour's managerial admin, with support guaranteed from PC or LD when necessary, works great for them. The only thing that might force a rethink, is if Conservative support continues and Labour loses power in Cardiff Bay.

Changing the status quo, yet alone Wales gaining independence is not coming until fundamental obstacles in the British state are overcome. This election made that plain. https://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2019-12-13/corbyns-defeat-slayed-the-lefts-last-illusion/

TBQH I am so frustrated with Plaid Cymru. Hordes of Welsh people have been urging them to embrace Brexit instead of climbing into bed with the foreign LibDem Party. Had PC been a Brexit Party instead of Blue most of Wales would have been green. PC lost an opportunity which will probably never come again. It is very very sad when a supposed Welsh Party goes against its own people with a foreign Party.

The extent of the Tory victory was unexpected to most of us, and we can only hope that the hot-heads amongst them pause and reflect, before rushing towards a “No Deal” Brexit, which would be damaging for Wales, and against the wishes of the majority in Scotland and also Northern Ireland, where, for the first time in 100 years, most of the MPs are in favour reunification with the Irish Republic. I was listening to a discussion on “Galwad Cynnar” this morning about the possible complications of a “No Deal” Brexit for an institution of international standing such as IBERS, where their commercial arm needs to comply with EU criteria to have minimal problems in selling their products to their European Union customers. It is therefore essential that if Brexit is to be pursued, that a pragmatic approach be adopted. Lets hope that the new crop of MPs follow an evolutionary approach rather than precipitate prolonged strife by a rash ill-considered decisions. It is likely that many on the left of centre in Wales will be daunted by the prospect of right of centre, S.E.England focused Westminster government for the next 10 to 20 years, and may seek changes to the constitution. If we are moving towards a break-up of the UK, let us approach it in a way that recognises the important economic and social links we have with England, that need to be safeguarded.

Conservative? Al Johnson's pledges look strangely Blairian. 650 000 000 to NHS.........weekly! Continuation of crappy state schools, a windmill society by 2050. It is not Conservative, but weird populist spaghetti. English Nationalism. Good luck to them. It's their country. It is the end of the British Empire. Ireland united and Scotland independent. Johnson talks of the " incredible united kingdom", and that's exactly what it is. So, England is the new UK ! Which leaves us with Cymru; Aapply for Jersey type status? Out of the EU, means no free movement. Restrict immigration. Within EU, restrict immigration. From outside the EU. Get it?

Never mind the left-right issues. Wales will have to fight tooth and nail to hang on to what powers are already devolved. I doubt many are convinced by the arguments for full independence .... yet. But we are deluding ourselves if we think Boris means anything other than England when he talks about a "one nation tory party".

East wales will decide on what direction wales goes in and that will always be the same direction as post industrial England because they have more in common with the English working classes than the cymry.

'The question for Wales’s left, therefore, is whether they are happy to be ruled by an unrepresentative government out of loyalty to the union or if they would rather Wales have the powers to run itself as a centre-left country.' I wonder just what might be the practicalities of that? When, as an English 'blow-in, I lived in the south of Wales in my younger days, I was for much of the time so far west - in Ceredigion and later in Swansea - that the ambiguities of the borderlands weren't obvious: in the 1960s Ceredigion was overwhelmingly Welsh both in language and sentiment, and Swansea, although much more English in speech, was unmistakeably a wholly Welsh town. Even when I lived in Gwent I didn't really anticipate a serious problem as to where England stopped and Wales began: the Wye seemed to me to be a pretty emphatic boundary. Though I probably should have given more weight to the story which I heard in my student days that when the ancient ambiguity of 'Wales and Monmouthshire' was finally resolved some time in around 1960, a 'Croeso i Gymru' sign was erected in the middle of the bridge on the edge of Chepstow, and the following Saturday night, following an animated and inebriated conversation in one of the town's pubs, a group of blokes went down to the bridge, hauled out the new sign and chucked it into the Wye. But now, living not too far from the border in the north-east, it does seem to me that if a truly 'separate' Wales comes about, the border could hardly continue as it now is. Just outside Chester there's a trading estate/retail park which sprawls across the border as if such a thing doesn't exist. You've got an area around Deeside which is thoroughly English in culture where people speak modified Scouse and shop in Chester. You've got tracts of east Radnor and east Breconshire where the border wanders haphazardly through the hills and the speech and outlook of the folk living there is indistinguishable in whichever side you find yourself. I recall churchwardens in a north Monmouthshire village asked to attend an event at 'the cathedral' and turning up at Hereford when they should have been in Newport. Except around Carlisle, the border between England and Scotland seems to run through thinly populated remote countryside along the crest of highish hills. In Wales it's less straightforward!