Out of the frying pan? Why Welsh autonomy may not be entirely safe under a Labour UK government

The only way we can be safe is by being independent of the vile system of Westminster. Westminster politics can't be reformed, its not a case of "who is running the show" but the whole sorry pantomime being a toxic and unfair tragedy for all who have ever been unfortunate enough to come in contact with it. Annibyniaeth

I've commented on this problem on another article. What hasn't been mentioned in this article is that independence supporters in Welsh Labour have some thinking to do. Can Welsh Labour deliver a Welsh Nation State? The "Don't knows" also have some thinking to do. I would imagine that they would largely comprise the indy-curious pro-devolution constituency. Can UK Labour be trusted to deliver a fair devolution settlement? As mentioned in a recent op-ed, the idea that we're better governed by Westminster has clearly been debunked by the Johnson circus. But there's another myth that needs debunking ... that what Wales really needs is a Labour Government at Westminster. Let's scrutinise that. Since Labour won its first majority in Wales, compare the number of years in which we have been governed by the Tories and how many have we been governed by Labour. Surely Welsh Labour supporters will agree, Wales should have the Government it elects. Yet voting Labour has not been sufficient to ensure that. Only a Welsh Nation State can make certain that the Welsh electorate gets the Government it elects. Secondly, UK Labour Governments have also pursued the policies of deindustrialisation, neoliberalism and agglomeration (of the City of London) that has led to the growing economic gulf between London/s.e.England and the rest of the UK which has so damaged the Welsh Nation. Labour use the fig leaf of redistributionism but this is inadequate. It's political power that needs redistributing not money. Our prosperity depends on effective Welsh Governance not the Barnett formula. Without the means to govern our own economy properly we are left dependent on the economic and fiscal policies that put us at a material disadvantage in the first place. The very policies, the very economic system Labour not only failed to reform but actively celebrates the holy "solidarity" cash cow. It smells of pork barrell politics to me - not as obvious as Johnson's "levelling up" con trick but think about the political construction of this when Drakeford talks of solidarity and insurance policies and how Wales helping to return a UK Labour Government will deliver more for Wales. It's a conjurers illusion. I urge Welsh Labour members and supporters to read Tom Nairn's "Break up of Britain." Dysfunctional economies and political powerlessness break bad States. UK Labour cannot be trusted to deliver the political power we need. Neither can they be relied upon to deliver the structural reforms needed to eliminate the inequalities in the UK economy. Can Welsh Labour members in good conscience continue with your current arrangements/position? How long can you hold out hope that Labour will be the vehicle by which Wales attains the political settlement we deserve? Is it time for Welsh Labour to become an autonomous party, affiliated with new English and Scottish Labour parties? That would appear to me to be the bare minimum that could work for you. If that doesn't happen, then what?

UK Labour has never wanted Wales autonomy. Look no further than the 1997 devolution referenda where Tony Blair & New Labour gave Wales a talking shop Assembly with no powers, gave only Wales the derogatory title of First Secretary, parachuted Labour loyalist in Alun Michael using the Labour block vote overruling members first choice Rhodri Morgan. Scotland on the other hand were given a Scottish Parliament with numerous powers, Northern Ireland, a legislative Assembly, and both had First Ministers unlike Wales who had a First Secretary as mentioned. This is what UK Labour thought of Wales. As a lesser nation & people. I've never forgotten this national slight and so should you. And let's say it as it is. "Sir" Keir Starmer is a champagne socialist from the same stable as Tony Blair. A true blue Tory in socialist clothing. And once in power as Prime Minister will favour England with funding & infrastructure builds and will not devolve any more power to Wales or repatriate powers & levers stolen by the Tories since Boris Johnson's tenure. Welsh Labour must not delude themselves that Starmer will be more favourable to more devolution. Starmer & Labour thinks of Wales as England's property not a separate country. And English Labour, let's give them their real name, are a threat to Wales as much as the Conservatives are. So I advise any Pro-Devolution Labour voters to join Pro-Independence groups , especially Plaid Cymru, to send a message to Unionists in English Labour that it's not business as usual. We are not your voter cow to milk ever 5 years , thereafter ignore. Only independence will ensure Welsh devolution & democracy survives intact. #YesCymru 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 #PlaidCymrj 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 #Ymlaen 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 #NoToLabourUnionism 🇬🇧

Westminster is Westminster no matter which colour is in power, none of the parties have done Cymru much good. We all know our best option is independence. It is time Welsh Labour woke up to that fact too.

I've always thought that once Labour return to power their enthusiasm for further devolution will wane. Labour in England would have much more to lose than the Tories would if the Union broke up, and although after the next election there will be more Labour MS than MPs in Wales, you will expect the likes of Bryant and Kinnock to voice their opposition to further powers, concerned about their own self interests. But the electoral systems in Westminster and the proposed one in the Senedd means that Labour MPs are much less likely to have to work with other parties. For me the best outcome after the next election would be for Labour to be the largest party but a hung parliament.

Fact : Labour MPs at westminster (including many from Wales) have consistently resisted the devolution of criminal justice and broadcasting to Wales.

If Welsh Labour did go along with this, I do not believe that the people of Wales would continue to vote for them. They would have the choice of severing their ties with Westminster Labour and becoming an ostensibly pro-independence party in alliance with Plaid Cymru, or see their support base collapse and lose their voters to Plaid, probably even more rapidly and drastically than Scottish Labour lost theirs to the SNP. There is a large element of the Scottish working class for whom unionism is strongly tied to their sense of cultural identity. Labour in Scotland at least can fill a niche being the party of working class unionists. I don't think Welsh Labour could even rely on filling a similar niche in Wales.

This is a further reminder - as if we needed one - that the Labour Party's concern is ultimately about winning in England. It is a unionist party! And NEVER EVER forget Gordon Browns so-called rip-roaring speech (covered by every media outlet) just before the referendum vote. Untold riches if you voted no......and then didn't have the courage to defend his Westminster seat

As long as power in Westminster is based on pandering to England's needs, wants, and attitudes (which it will always inherently need to be due to simple maths) we are never truly safe from anything or anyone in Westminster. Our parliament, laws, assumed rights, can be overruled, ignored, or abolished on a whim to win seats somewhere else and there is nothing we can do about it. It is not merely a problem of who England votes for but of the whole system itself, in its entirety. We deserve a system we can rely on existing, and at least have a little form of trust in, and the ability to change it if needed. And one where our identity, situation, or existence is never used to score points between others for their political gain elsewhere. That is only possible with a fully independent government and country instead of this weird pseudo-colonial pretence. Its about more than party politics. Nobody in Westminster politics can ever look out for us like we would, and need to. The belief in the "union" is purely ideological, with little true weight beyond some emotional connection to what is personally "comfortable" through familiarity, and a lot of sunk-cost fallacy protected by thought stopping phrases and bully tactics of "strong unionism". There is no good reason to put up with this ridiculous situation when we have better options, like being a normal country. Nobody is able to "save" us, but ourselves.

Any constitutional "tinkering" that does not have majority support within all four constituent nations is not legitimate and is a recipe for potential disaster.

English people are 49% for England alone, as they feel it will get them the best deal. It is the warhawks and supremacist egotists who want a "UK" or "Great Britain", which they feel sends a power message to the world. Tiresome.

Welsh Labour is nothing like the traditional Labour party.