#WhenWalesIsIndependent: Building the Wales of the future

The kind of Wales you are talking about sounds like one where civil liberties are of secondary importance, and I would spend my life fighting it. What Wales needs is to break Labour hegemony at all costs. It is damaging this country more than anything since the Acts of Union. Walk around the Valleys, look at the disparagement. That’s what 100 years of Labour has done. Don’t blame Westminster, let’s look in the mirror and take responsibility. Labour’s Conformity is not the answer. E. g. Conscripting young people into a corps. It’s authoritarian, and it’s wrong. Also, mass building of anything encourages conformity which creates a plebian mindset and eventually, proletarian anger. The very thing you want to end via the Labour Party.

A period of public / national service is no more authoritarian than the state claiming part of your earnings and property (aka taxation). I don’t really like “isms” of any kind because they involve the direction of policy by ideological dogma rather than the needs and interests of real people and communities. Nonetheless I find much in this programme that is appealing, whatever the author chooses to call it

And I agree that effective government of Wales and the development of a dynamic economy is not possible without an efficient national transport system. At this point, the focus should be on major rail investments, including the North-South link

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with the proposals, but it is great to hear some specific ideas of what an independent Wales could do. This kind of thing gets people's imaginations going. Independence for its own sake, or for historic or governance reasons just isn't going to excite the general public. Plaid Cymru ran a website a few years back as part of the their 'Million Conversations' campaign. This website was excellent for allowing anyone to post and/or discuss different ideas for Wales. Sadly the website, 'Million Ideas' is now closed.

How does the governance of NATO work? Is it one country one vote, such that as a member Cymru would have the same amount of influence in decision making as the USA? Or is it contributionist such that it depends on how much different countries are funding NATO activities. How would this be counted, since to do so would be necessary to separate 'national' from 'NATO' activities of each country's military. Being in NATO might make Wales a target for the Russians or Chinese in the event of a war, but in a total war it could be anyway, NATO member or not. I am also not convinced that a conscripted corps is a sensible way to deliver major infrastructure projects like a north-south high speed railway in the 21st century rather than a (nationalised or not) company with regular employees. It is a more complex and technical kind of project than it was in the days when most of the work was done with manual labour by men with shovels. High speed rail may be overkill for a country the size of Wales, because it could be a waste of money to have one high speed line from Cardiff to Llandudno, but everywhere else must rely on much slower trains to reach it. Better to spend less money on a standard speed north-south line, and then have enough money left to upgrade local services. A high speed line will be more expensive due to the larger radius of curvature requirement which means more tunneling, more difficult decisions and expense in demolishing whatever is in the way of the line etc.

Agree that conscription sounds too authoritarian. There should be incentives for young people to take a career in engineering: I found that career has good job satisfaction. As an independent nation Wales (nor Scotland or Ireland for that matter) should not be inviting that USA led imperialist block NATO onto our lands. They have a record of supporting colonial powers in the past 70 years including Against Vietnam's independence, sided with colonial wars of pre-1974 Portugal in Africa, Overthrew the elected government in Chile in 1973, Yugoslavia, and Libya ! In fact, Libya was one of the richest countries in Africa and able to take refugees escaping from other conflict zones in the region - Then Nato arrived: turned it into a conflict zone base for diash and now those refugees, not wanted there, seek to across the Med sea into southern Europe !

As another mid-Wales based Nationalist but with a bent towards small-government, pro-business solutions, I see things in this article to strongly support and vehemently oppose in equal measure, and I'm glad that Ben has anticipated that response. Overall, though, I'm delighted to see the debate move beyond "Should Wales be Independent?" to "What sort of a country should an independent Wales be?"

Labour has always periodically drifted towards authoritarianism. That’s not an independent Wales worth fighting for. It’s an independent Wales worth laying down your life if need be to fight against. Wales is better than Left-wing Authoritianism.

Some good points here from Ben Gwalchmai, but I'm afraid that his vision for a future socialist Wales leaves me cold. Especially when one bears in mind that "socialism" has been the defining attribute of the Labour Party which has mis-managed Wales so dreadfully for the best part of a century. The challenges of setting up an Independent Wales are such that only a productive, entrepreneurial and dynamic mind-set can ensure that it can be a success. That has to mean a much expanded private sector, and an instinctive drive to turn Wales into the best small country in the world. There is no way that an over-arching socialist vision with its ingrained statism, authoritarianism and suspicions about wealth creation can be up to this nation-building challenge. I would be in favour of a publically-run rail service, and a wider publically-run infrastructure network to provide the building blocks for a new economy- but then the state then needs to get out of the way to allow a new generation of Welsh entrepreneurs to come up with bespoke business solutions for our country. Look at the small independent nations which have emerged in Europe over the last 10-20 years, which are the equivalent to Wales population-wise, e.g Estonia, Montenegro, Croatia, Slovenia, Slovakia: it's not socialism which has allowed them to develop so quickly and increase their GDP levels so rapidly( from where they were under communism). It's basically a renewed sense of national purpose allied to common-sense economic policies mainly tailored on the capitalistic model. Of course the Corporate Capitalism of the past generation or so has been an unmitigated disaster for people and communities in Wales and most of the rest of these isles. It's a totally discredited model. As Adam Smith,the Scottish philosopher put it succinctly back in the 18th century " Capitalism can only work when people trust each other". Wales is the right size for us to develop a small-scale and humane capitalism based on trust which can deliver for our people.

To achieve all that would require us to cut all ties with Westminster, something l would fully support.

Along with others, I would be vehemently opposed to the idea of a conscripted WEC. There may well be a need for some kind of national service offering that is voluntary, that offers young people an opportunity to spend some time both working on projects of social benefit to our nation, and also acquiring experience of working life in a safe and supportive environment with others of a similar age. It could become something of a 'right of passage' for those transitioning to adulthood. It could be a very positive environment that allows young people to find out about their strengths and weaknesses and perhaps help guide them towards a future career, or as Ben has suggested, to university study. However, it must be completely voluntary, and also transparent, and above all, democratic, (and democracy should also be part and parcel of our education system from day one at primary school). One important role for such an agency could be to assist in the building of the social housing we so desperately need, as I would envisage that, for efficiency's sake, speed and high standards, a large degree of prefabrication be involved, and if designs were based on Walter Segal principles, a large variation in styles could be achieved using standardised, mass produced components. I was also horrified about the suggestion that Wales should continue as NATO's playground. Shouldn't an independent Wales be adamant in it's strict neutrality? Since the age of 15, when I began to realise that NATO was just a US led bloc intended to use Europe as the stage for the USA's defence I have been opposed to it. There is some need for European co-operation, and co-ordination on military matters, but this must stop short of a power bloc, and must include countries currently more or less prohibited, nay indeed, antagonised by the USA and her European poodles. Particularly worrying is the UK's sycophantic approach to the USA. As long as England wants any kind of alliance with the USA, then it must be regarded with extreme suspicion. As far as military service is concerned, I think that it must be restricted to those above the age of at least 18, (and I'd prefer to say at least 25, as by that time young people are beginning to mature, and realise that fighting wars can seriously shorten your life, and thus be less willing to fight in wars that aren't directly to do with national defence). Any decision to be involved in 'foreign adventures' of any kind, (including UN policing actions) must be decided by national plebiscite, as then we could avoid situations such as occurred over the Iraq War of 2003 where popular will was ignored by politicians. As far as the economy goes, it must be socialised as far as is humanly possible, but the state capitalist model must be avoided at all costs. Not only is it capitalist, it also allows governments to privatise it when it suits them and their cronies. So, we are pretty much left with direct worker control of industry, which is only right and proper, as it is the worker, and the worker alone who is the creator of wealth. However, individuals must also be allowed to set themselves up in business as sole traders or producers. So long as they do not have the power to exploit, then their presence would be of social benefit.

I really like this and the tone is really uplifting and positive.

hands up all those who live on a council estate and like it.

I don't find conscription too alien a term. It's on what basis. It's important to define what it means and its terms of use. It's far better than unemployment, or working in a 'revolving door' of short term nothing jobs. Nothing feeds crime more than idleness. I like much of this report. Work brings association. Identity. Let's not look backwards and point blame. I fear the force of greater alienation of the lower order of achievers as we become more technical and the demands for higher level thinking and competencies of modern working practices. Where does AI fit in. What of the of increasing global / international dynamics of bigger and better. If only a much shredded version of what has been proposed is adopted I see an agenda for home based innovation. For sure if we remain weded to the conformity of the known, and it has failed Wales, then let's try the approach of a radical, prescribed agenda that creates enterprises on people centred activities that values equality above all else. It may be called an organismic, bottom up ideology that profits everyone, and fully inclusive. To do do requires substantial funding from central sources of finances and that will decide its fate. The requirement of capital.