Welsh Labour must choose between independence or perpetual winter under a Tory government

If Labour's Welsh membership are to be persuaded we need to stop calling the desire for a Welsh State "Nationalism." It is a desire for Democracy. The analysis must be clear. That is that in the 100 year history of the modern UK state, coincident with Labour domination of the Welsh political landscape has yielded more often than not, a Conservative government and a Welsh economy in decline relative to the r.o.UK and Europe. This has not delivered the solidarity/equality (see GINI) to which Labour aspires. Neither has it been conservative with regard to our communities, society and culture. Why has Labour's Welsh membership and leadership championed an unequal Union that through its centralising and homogenising political establishment, done so much to leave Wales behind? The figures speak for themselves. 30% Child poverty, poor health outcomes and higher mortality rates in post-industrial towns, lowest productivity in Western Europe, 2nd lowest wages in the UK etc etc. I thought Labour stood for reform and yet by championing the constitutional status quo, they have hamstrung Wales insofar as they have overseen the retention of our political agency in the form of our 40 MP's at Westminster, our voice utterly drowned out. My message to Welsh Labour is this: Welsh political agency must be exercised in a Welsh State by a democratically elected government of Wales' choosing. THEN we will be able to build our economy and a fairer society hand in hand. This is not "Nationalism." This is democracy. It does not preclude a Union of British States. It does mean that sovereignty over Welsh matters lies in the hands of the elected representatives of the Welsh people. Become what you should always have been. The Labour Party of Wales. There is potential if agreement can be reached on a common constitutional position and on policy to unite the Left in Wales and campaign for the reform we need to move our country on, bring prosperity to our communities and raise living standards for all. It's time to put an end to the fractious infighting, leave the bandying of throwaway labels behind and put a pragmatic coalition with an electable program of reform to the public. I for one am sick of watching Wales economy and communities deteriorate whilst factions posture for the moral high ground. There's too much at stake. The UK is changing - get ahead of the curve for goodnessakes.

It is not Plaid Cymru Afon Gwy's waters have trickled name of. The Valleys fall to a new belief. A Russian uprising comes; the endless forest hides them from sky machines. Serbia changes. China imitates Cecil Rhodes. France holds back a darkness. Cymraeg must survive what comes. All other roads vanish Wales.

In trying to unlock the Welsh mindset, especially the Welsh Labour mindset, I'd point out 2 things. Labour might be trying to fight in England's continuing class war. But it seems to this observer that Labour have in fact gone off on another track, the "woke" versus the rest. Most of Wales does not buy "woke" as it does not reflect real life as most of us see it. See also Plaid. "Nationalism in Wales and Scotland does not have the right-wing connotations it has in England". This does not sound right. Welsh Labour does hiss "nationalist" as an all-purpose though vague insult. What they mean is Plaid is crypto-fascist and has a narrow focus compared with Labour internationalism. Way out of date now, if it was ever true. Where I do agree with Ioan Talfryn is in spotting the value of UK Federalism. At least, I nearly do. People who love Wales must look harder for the form of Welsh Government that might go with the grain of the UK. It does exist. Its not exactly Federalism, because Liverpool and Tyneside are not asking for this, even if Yorkshire might. No. the one under our noses is Dominion Status. Very familiar to and acceptable to Westminster and HMQ. And is the best possible preparation for full Indy. Trouble is, people who love Wales and want to promote Wales just don't understand it. The last generation that got it was in 1905, when Wales came within an ace of a Dominions Parliament in Cathays. Worked for Ireland, and loads of places. We have to learn how to do it all over again.

There'd never be a right wing govt in an independent Wales - welsh labour members and supporters what are you waiting for? Get involved in the burgeoning Welsh Indy movement

Basically we are now living in a one party state, there is very little chance of a Labour government for the foreseeable future, the only way Cymru can avoid this Tory hell is by going it's own way - we all know that. I do believe Mark Drakeford has some independence leanings, I'm no Labour supporter but their backing is needed. No Dominion status but fully independence before the Tories trash our country any further- and they will.

The First Past the Post system gives the impression that voters in England, Scotland and Wales (and across the different regions of the three nations) have very different beliefs and values; however once you look at the vote shares then you soon realize that there are a lot more similarities of outlook than differences. However, it is often the case that as the differences become fewer so there is a need on the part of some people to emphasize them. The 2011 census didn't allow people to choose more than one identity; however, increasing numbers of people have multiple layered identities based on where they are from, who they feel they are, where they are and where they are going. This is likely to be the case increasingly so those whose creed confines people to little boxes that made sense in the 19th century and 20th century (generally with disastrous results) might find they are going against the grain of history rather than with it. More flex in our ideas of what it is to be Welsh would make a big difference politically.

That map looks wrong to me. The Lib Dems were defeated by the Torys in Brecon and Radnor - but it's shown as all red around there?

Danny Dorling Oxford Professor of geography has found that the influx of retired English people into Wales tilted the balance off voting for remain to that for Brexit. If that analysis is correct would that influx from England stop the Welsh people gaining control of their own country. I think this point has to be taken seriously by those who like myself want Wales to break the Westminster stranglehold of Welsh life and culture.

Good article, but yet another that is a waste of time and effort! It is a pointless topic for discussion, only if you want to dwell in Neverland for ever. It just keeps doing the rounds attracting the same comments and achieves nothing (that's why it keeps doing the rounds!). As you say Welsh Labour is a UNIONIST PARTY and therefore will only pay homage, be loyal and give service to the English monarch and Westminster and never wholeheartedly Cymru. That is how their politicians end up in the house of whores. I only wish more time was devoted to discussing the best ways to educate the Welsh Labour VOTERS who we all should be concentrating on and not a self-serving party that enjoys Tory governments because Labour only exists for and thrives on poverty. Saying they need to choose between Independence or perpetual … is like believing Bojo The Clown will stop lying, it is not in his character, same as welsh labour, they are both programmed to serve themselves and the English queen (who will bestow upon them more rewards) not their people! Now, a question I have asked Labour For an Independent Wales (LFIW) on several occasions over the past two to three years is, if they are honest about supporting and joining the Independence Movement will they first drop all links with Welsh Labour and their Masters in London Labour HQ? Because, they pop up now and again when there appears to be a growing Indy Movement to pull labour voters away from being Indy curious like they did big time around Indy Fest 2017. However, they seem to fade afterwards and still cannot answer that one simple question. Therefore, if you are a part of, close to or know someone within LFIW please ask them to at least acknowledge my message and from there perhaps we can start up a conversation about LFIW (if they are truly serious about it). Diolch!

Those horrible far right English nationalists while we welsh nats are all cuddly and cute.....remind me who burned down whose houses?