Wales is trapped in a war between two factions that don't care about our nation

Couldn't agree more. Politics is shifting in a more radical way then convention wishes it to. It's trying to understand its new direction or better, what is best for Wales. What's explained might suit Wales and its history of non conformity and liberalism. Seamus Heaney once wrote "At home in Ireland there's a habit of avoidance, an ironical attitude towards the Authority figure". I wonder if that applies to all Celtic nations. We must think the unthinkable, and start new political dialogue.

I'm not sure I referred to the general population of Wales ..... . Rather the twin forces of liberal and non conformity as bed fellows that made its mark in Wales. Non conformity is written as a significant influence in Wales from (18th to (20th . The Welsh Methodist revival of (18th was one of the most significant religious and social movements in the history of Wales. Ref Nonconformity in Wales. Howell Elvert Lewis. For Liberal Wales , then the Liberal Council for Wales , founded by David Lloyd George in 1897 , making it the oldest political parties in Wales . The first to establish a truly Welsh identity. It's written that during the late (19 th early (20th the Welsh Liberals were a home of radical Welsh nationalism. Cymru Fydd ( Wales to be) was comparable at times to that occuring in Ireland. There is clear history in Wales of fervent nationalism. The question is what has happened since. In more recent times the current Liberal presence has always favoured devolution in Wales and a supporter of greater democracy. If Wales is truly to realise it's aim of independence then by current support we need a radical and forensic approach to greater diversity and collaboration. Benjamin is creating this platform. Let's cease it.

@ Trailorboy, It has taken us too long to build Plaid Cymru (repairing the bwlch left by Saunders Lewis’ irreconcileable ideas of stable civilisation when compared with reality), too long to build something brand new now. We need a solid group of Liberals within Plaid Cymru, who eventually become leaders.

What we certainly do need is electoral and policy co-operation between Plaid and Liberals. To Paul of Neath please let me know what these so called lies are.

Leaving coal aside, Wales greatest export over the centuries has been its industrious people. Wherever Welsh people settled, they took with them the values of both the chapel and the predominant political thinking of the country, which was overwhelmingly liberal in Wales. The Welsh contributed to the establishment of stable democracy and the rule of law in countries like Canada, New Zealand and Australia. Setting aside the rights and wrongs of empire and colonialism, we should be proud of this. Liberal politics served Wales well for many centuries and enabled it to punch well above its weight. The middle ground is aways a productive and fertile place to be. Perhaps we should rediscover it once again.

Good analysis of Wales's current situation but unsatisfactory answer to our problems. Liberalism sounds fine as an abstract concept, but when you apply it to Wales"s own history, both past and recent, you can see where it really falls down in real time terms. I suggest the author reads Simon Brooks''s excellent book 'Pam na fu Cymru' to see how Liberalism wedded Wales to Britishness and a relentless emphasis on English as a means of individual enhancement from the mid 19th century onwards at a time when Wales had all the potential to become an independent nation,( 80 per cent Welsh speaking, a well educated population, strong press and national institutions being set up) If we move forward to some more recent history, the Liberal party in Wales are infamous for their mendacious political approach. They have always lauded themselves as being somewhow morally superior to the other parties, whilst simultaneously being the dirtiest of political operatives. Ceredigion being the prime example. Read ' The greasy Poll' by Mike Parker to read what modern liberalism looks like in Wales today. History counts, and the people of Wales have long memories. Liberalism is not what Wales needs. Wales needs a bespoke solution, designed from the bottom up by people in our communties. Our own Welsh values would provide a better base for this than any political ideologies. For me, these foundational Welsh values were best encapsulated by the late Professor JR Jones, Swansea University, who described them as being the creative engagement between the Land, Language and People of Wales. I think the new bespoke, made in Wales solution could gain huge public support by coming up with innovative ideas and policies based on Land, Language and People. Hopefully, the new political party which will start in the new year can blend all three components together to produce a fresh new vision for Wales.

I fear I can't let this pass. The facts as I know them and can relate to them, fall short of my understanding . It reads as emphatic and a complete analysis of fact. If you base you opinion on Mike's experience then boy o boy I'd to read others from their experiences of fighting seats on the sWales valleys. It's endemic in all parties. Ruthless pusuit of victory. Placing the demise of Welsh independence on the slow and telrntless erosion of our basic rights of Welsh living is to white wash the elitism in Wales that grew wealthy on its largesse and continue to receive gongs and swords on shoulders as benificiers today. I think placing this on libralism is scapegoating the reality we face today, since much more could and should have been done to support a better education for many like me by the WJEC. You really must think again and reflect on the migration issues, diversity, economic realism, and potential for change and the capacity and structures needed to create enhance the freedoms and futures of ordinary folk in a fast changing world.

Hmm! Simon Brooks in his book Pam Na Fu Cymru: Methiant Cenedlaetholdeb Cymraeg, argues that liberalism was at the root of our present and very great troubles. More recently, liberals under a certain nic leggue, connived with Cameroon and üsbawn in introducing tuition fees at universities (very liberal that, i don't think); passed a measure that deprived all on low or average incomes of the right to marry 'foreigners' despite that right being in the universal charter on human rights; and introduced the universal credit system as a way of yet further impoverishing the sub-working class. Liberals, pseudo-liberals, liberal democrats etc have been shown for what they are: a load of bourgeoise tossers! It is true that the british left and right have no interest in Cymru. For welsh labor to say they are is so easy to refute, and it is astonishing they persist in their mind games: some valleys communities are amongst the most deprived in Europe. We need a left of centre party with interest in Cymru, in the environment, and in social justice.

Benjamin, appreciate the argument put forth...but can you be more nuanced with your attack on archaic left/right. I feel the bigger issue is top-down authoritarianism of either left/centre/right.........I am a libertarian of the left variety at heart...and consider the centralised authoritrian states of franco/ stalin / north korea / saudi arabia / argentina right wing.....more problematic The authoritarian left/right speaking from london gives little empowerment to us in the state's periphery

We are a very strange and diverse WE as the claims in this debate illustrate. Not all of us even occupy that Western peninsular which in turn has no economic unity beyond the statistical fictions of government. Wales is a range of ideas predicated on a language spoken by a minority. Wales has a porous border allowing us, its people and resources, to be exploited by its nearest big neighbour and many of us being seduced on and off by the idea of us being part of a bigger and better whole. The future, like the past of Wales will depend on the language. Without the language and its tales we would already be part of England. WE need to unite Wales by developing a scheme of Welsh Studies for children and young people of all ages using both languages but with the aim of reasonable linguistic competence in both languages and an understanding of OUR history, geography and politics as part of the final goal. Like Finland we should aim for teachers to be educated to at least master level and the best Welsh teachers should be in predominantly English language areas. More urgently perhaps our small communities do need to be protected from the onslaught of outside companies and given the necessary support and resources to thrive and we should look to how communities in Italy especially in the region of Emilia -Romagna largely governed by Euro communist governments have managed to do this very successfully. Also small traditional Welsh speaking areas also need protection from in -migration by those empowered by selling in rich areas of England and out bidding locals in beautiful rural Wales. Just as we use the planning system to protect the natural environment we must not hesitate to use it to protect the linguistic environment in small but significant locations. Whilst liberty is very important it is not the only GOOD because equality is also a good in a liberal society and freedom for the lion posses distinct problems for the lamb.