There is an appetite for more independence in Wales - we know Westminster doesn't work for us

In her speech yesterday May didn't once refer to the devolved governments' competence over policies and practice post-Brexit. Every time she mentioned "parliament" she was referring exclusively to Westminster, as if the other parliaments in the UK counted for nothing, which, of course, is her mindset. Don't suppose there was one civil servant in London or one minister in the Chequers pow-wow [Cairnsie - where were you when your nation needed you?] who thought to correct this impression before she gave the speech.

Leanne. The headline of your posting is perfect except for one word. The word is more. Remove that and you are really talking.

I find the title rather negative and half-hearted and more or less a whinge. "There is an appetite for more independence in Wales – we know Westminster doesn’t work for us". Nobody will 'work' for us or give is hand-outs to prosperity. Not Westminster. Not the EU. Not even a Welsh Government. We have to do things for ourselves. And the best framework to facilitate being able to do things for ourselves in my opinion is a government on a Wales level. 'There is an appetite for independence in Wales - we have to do things ourselves to make things work.' That's better.

Leanne, (I don't usually write long ones, so maybe I'll send this as a letter too.) Plaid Cymru’s biggest challenge is that this is an astonishingly diverse country for its size. And that we cannot empower Wales with one political viewpoint while we are too small to realistically have more than one nationalist party In giving away my Texan origins, here is a solution: a .45 revolver-modeled umbrella chamber fused with the ideas of the Dutch Liberal Party D66. In D66 if you lose an election, no matter the level, you lose your position and the right stand in the seat next time, because you didn’t win. A .45 revolver umbrella works like this: you can load bullets into the chamber with different compositions of metal and gunpowder and physically rotate it to choose the bullet best matching your opponent. Different bullets not only have different impacts, but they have different trajectories as they fly through the air. Wales’ diversity requires more than one political ideology. Think of it like a problem you cannot solve with one linguistic formula. Look at the genitive case in 6 languages: Plaid Leanne Leanne’s Party La fête de Leanne Leanne er fest Leannovu večírek Leannein juhla Aside from Celtic Languages being far more efficient in the genitive case than others (something which implies the Celts were fiercely capitalist), how does this tranfer to politics? We cannot win all of Wales with one poliitcal ideology's formula. We need a chamber in Plaid which is able to rotate varying political ideologies across the diversity of this country. So if decentralised socialism candidates regularly fail in a certain constituency , we rotate the chamber and shoot out a green, financial conservative, liberal, social conservative or centalised socialist canadidate. Because we realise one ideology simply cannot represent an entire country. To create this we would need to have some kind of Senedd within Plaid with rules in place so none of these 6 groups is able to assert dominance over the other. It would also require more stringent rules to quell infighting, and to streamline candidate processes to happen far more quickly and efficiently. But then I guess I'm a Darwinist: so the aim is to take the form which encourages the most constant mode of structural change.

Devolution is not made to work for us. It is made to work for Westminster colonial aims. It will never work for us because the threat of removal or winding back of powers will always be there. The threat of being dragged into Westminster's decisions will always be there - another Iraq? We are ignored in Westminster. We are ignored on Brexit in Westminster. The biggest statement Plaid Cymru could take is not taking their seats. The way forward is clear and always has been... the journey towards more powers is the threat of Independence and only the threat of Independence. I'm sure you've been told these things. I'm sure you've been told your recent article is not radical enough. So the questions I find myself asking is... do you just think you know better in the face of recent mediocre election results? Are you just sticking your fingers in your ears? Plaid Cymru as it is currently has no solid foundations outside Welsh speaking Wales. It is dependent on people like yourself and Neil McEvoy (as Ifan put it yesterday - Localism). You seem to have no wish to BUILD those foundations either through at LEAST the education system. Plaid needs to set out a plan for Counter-colonisation - which includes education, media and more events celebrating Welsh figures and important occasions to make them more mainstream. So what are we to do? Because it doesn't feel you or Plaid are truly listening. The true threat of the populism that brought about Brexit comes from the detached nature of technocrats. Words are not enough anymore. Posturing is not enough. Acts - visible acts to back up words and intent are what is needed. Do so or fall into irrelevance.

"people in Wales". That's the new 'safe' term for the Welsh people, is it?

There is one easy way to stop all but the Fundamental Nationalist 7% that apparently want an independent Wales. Just give Wales full fiscal responsibility for its spending needs. Draw the line where you will for Defence, Foreign Office etc, Stand back and watch as the loss of the perhaps flawed, but now vastly reduced Barnett formula payments kick in. We just do not generate enough income in Wales to support the 2nd most obese nation in the world. It is sad, but it is truth.

Nigel is right and wrong. It's what the media keeps flogging, and watch has toes turn upwards when the truth be told. It's like the trapeze artist says to the assistant " it's all about timing". I'm a recipient of a feed of social media from protect animal friends. It mentioned that rats love to be tickled. Um. The draw on our resources is endless. Prisons, the dumping of the disabled and sick from London and other cities and elsewhere to areas like Pembrokeshire, Carmarthen , North Wales, because they are vulnerable, and taking up valuable tenancies, In popular areas of much needed homes. Yet dropped into Welsh communities without support and with considerable costs to our deficite. Unrecognised and to the detriment of those without family support. It's shameless and desperate policies inflicted on the most vulnerable of our society. Don't talk to me about fundamentalism. You are the best at it.

Leanne, cario ymlean. Mae'n imposid i bod frindiau i rhyw pwy weld unig sais. Ni yn ddim ofn, ond ddim yn unig yr wir. Ni ein gylydd, ni yn dawel, yn aros hyd yr dydd pan Rydyn ni 'r di dal. Rwyn fi garu Gymru.

I take little confort from a racist. Impoverished, maligned, insulted. And do you know what. It's the Brent Authority of London ( Labour) who are the worst conspritors, of transporting the vulnerable to our shores. To rid them selves of the aged, mentally sick, and in desperate need of social care. I cry in despair at the callous treatment of those who deserve better. Don't pity me, I pity you and your like.

I hate to quote this guy Miss Wood...but he's right on this one: "Power devolved is power retained" Enoch Powell

Dafydd Obesity-It is here. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19366302, so not false unless we are nation of Atkins dieters! I will not defend rail funding, it is plainly unfair, leaving us with 2rd rate electrification, but.............."Plaid needs to set out a plan for Counter-colonisation" and "The Welsh nation is being incrementally replaced by a ‘diverse’ population" We are all immigrants of sorts and very few thoroughbred celts that live here. Being Welsh is very different depending upon whether you live in Chester, Chepstow, Carmarthen, Caernarvon or Caerphilly. There is no de facto formula for being Welsh, Fundamental Nationalists need to accept it or indeed become fascists.

Nigel Bull, like many in True Wales, hold their own people and their own country in contempt, accuse anyone who thinks Wales should get off its knees of 'racism', and is happy to be ruled by the likes of Boris Johnson rather than a Welsh-specific and Wales-first political arrangement. You can't do anything with those people - they are both aggressive (to other Welsh people) and fawning (to the English overlord), and you find them in Labour as much as the tories. They tell us we're poor and stupid, because they believe that themselves. They look at our problems and our debts, and ignore our actual and potential richness. They want us to stay small, dependent and pathetic, and they hate the Welsh language and fear Welsh identity. They think silly quips about English Breakfast Tea make them seem witty and cosmopolitan, but when you meet these people on the streets they just hate Welsh people like themselves for being pathetic and going along with the status quo, and they fear Welsh people who are unlike themselves for speaking another language, looking to a different history from the history of sad dependence and forelock-tugging, and for wanting a different future. It's not rocket science. These people are unpersuadable because their mentality of the mentality of the colonised. When I moved to Cardiff from England 25 years ago, I was amazed to see so many of these people among my neighbours. Now that I've become Welsh, I like to think there are fewer of them, but in truth I probably meet them less. Leanne Wood however is a charismatic politician stuck in a rut because she cannot see that all this high theoretical stuff she speaks and all this pamphleteering simply isn't reaching where it needs to reach. As various commentators have said, you don't 'ask' for dignity, you take it. There's only one thing to be done with the Labour party in Wales, which has overseen a slow catastrophe and yet which wins and wins through dirty fighting, deep state ruling of civil society, back room deals and lack of inspiring alternative (that's you, Plaid): it's beat them by relentless attacking and undermining and countering them. That ain't happening. Not make deals with them, be chums with them, blur the lines by joining their ex-advisers in lobbying firms and generally saying 'we're Plaid and we're part of the system'. People don't want more high political theory and endless pie in the sky programmes based on Gramsci and bits of communitarian socialism. Welsh Labour are a total disaster, and yet people still vote for them because they are reassuringly un-idealistic, lie through their teeth, have a proven track record of utter failure, and yet Plaid lags so far behind in the latest polls that it makes no real difference to Assembly seats. Labour don't wash their dirty linen in pubic and stay united, Plaid is like a 6th form debating society gone mad. Being elated about a 3 percent rise and a possible extra one seat in the Cardiff Bay in this climate is delusional, I'm afraid. After Carl Sargeant, after Brexit and the tory's mismanagement , the 'good news' is apparently that we've edged back into 2nd place. This can't go on. They came 3rd in Llanelli, Neath and Anglesey, - absolutely shocking. The fact is that in many places - through local mismanagement, crap campaigning , sub-Corbynite jargon and a general sense of being remote – Plaid are in retreat. I see no difference whatsoever between what Plaid are doing and saying now and the political statements and conditions that almost lost them their heartlands in the last election. A snap election now and they're down to 2 MPs. The Plaid leadership, and whoever runs their political and communications unit, bears responsibility for that. The real killer is that last election was a warning, and that warning has so far been unheeded. On the contrary, they're doing the exact same thing. I despair, and though I'm not going to join the 'new party' (whatever that is), and I'll still vote Plaid, it'll be without excitement or hope.

Cardiff devolution was always a branch of Westminster rule .... we need real devolution as far down as possible......individuals and communities able to make wealth with workers part owning where they work

Kairdiff Kidd I hold few in contempt, there is much on here that I thoroughly agree with and indeed some of what you say especially what you say of Plaid actions over recent years. True Wales existed because it was the only way that the comfy consensus between all parties could be challenged. To a man(or woman) few of us would have found anything wrong with the thoughts of Edeyrn above. Plaid defended all that was wrong in what had gone before because of being afraid that it would put back the long term goal of Independence. That will only happen if The Assembly is a success, but it cannot be unless criticised and reformed. This can as I see it be if either one or both from Plaid and The Tories make a big change. Labour has no reason to as it has always been in power here, it will only change enough to keep that power and no more. For the Tories, it will mean cutting loose from the English Tories, but it will also risk losing the percentage that would always vote for them previously. For Plaid it means changing into something more mature. There is going to be a change in the nationalist side soon for a number or reasons. More of the same will take them nowhere. Either a new party or a really big change in leadership. This also means criticising all that is wrong in Wales even if it hurts(as it will) If there is to be a viable Wales, there will also need to be more than one party pulling in that direction unless of course a one party state is the aim. There is much that is wrong with the USA, but the founding fathers knew of the many dangers to a new country from worshipping Mammon and the in-built human quest for more power. For the fundamantalist

.........fundamentalist that sees independence as a goal in itself, the above is very difficult to grapple with, but essential for long term success. You then attack me using your opinion of what you think I am, my view and you are so far from the truth. Terms like "these people" and then making assumptions of what they think is bigoted. I do not take myself seriously and see humour in all, especially keyboard warriors that hide behind a name! Off now for some lamb and leek soup

Nigel, I'm glad there are some things we agree on, and I certainly don't fail to appreciate your humour, but what you say about True Wales isn't really , er... , true: True Wales went around with a plastic inflatable pig going oink oink and telling Welsh voters that the Assembly was a bunch of pigs with their snouts in the trough. It was puerile politics by smear and fear. The TW person I spoke to once in Cardiff, who was standing not far from the inflatable pig, and might even in fact have been you, told me that AM's cost 3 times more than MPs (the exact opposite of the truth), and that only Welsh-speakers were allowed to work in the Assembly. In essence, True Wales told lies, and call me old fashioned but if True Wales was, as you put it, 'the only way the comfy consensus could be challenged', then you're either in the wrong movement (though your public pronouncements do, I'm afraid, go through the old 'snouts in the trough' routine, which suggests you're not) or your mates in True Wales were telling you porkies about what they stood for. True Wales never complains about Westminster MPs costs, never says anything about Wales being shafted in rail spending or airport duty or tidal lagoon investment or broadband or indeed anything which is Westminster-related. I checked earlier to see if TW had anything to say about the billion quid Westminster refurbishment, but no. You hated devolution and wanted to stop it. Maybe you still do. You feared any form of Wales that wasn't run de haut en bas by Westminster, even to the extent of saying zilch about MPs duckponds and the grotesque self-regarding millionaire's pantomime of MP expenses. Maybe you still do. Maybe you'd rather be run by John Redwood than a Welsh-elected Assembly. That's what I mean by 'these people', and in large part you're on of them for the reasons I've just outlined. I am judging you by what you've said, by the group you're a vocal member of, and by the behaviours, statements and values of that group. Don't try to pretend I'm making some sort of great prejudiced sweeping judgment because I'm not. But we appear to agree on why Plaid is heading nowhere, so that's a consensus of sorts.

Leanne and Plaid are far to cautious on the independence question. I think it's a fear of being accused of being Nationalists, which is ironic because that's why most people vote for them, and what the other parties accuse them of being anyway. The pretender to the crown Rhun is even worse, double speak is his second language after Cymraeg. Anyway what do they have to lose in talking independence? They seem happy to lose AMs in Cardiff and still call themselves the opposition, even though they are in third place without NMc and DET. I'm quite happy for them to reclaim the word independence - happy with civic Nationalism if it means we start using the term and normalising it in Wales in the way it's normal for the rest of the world. The demographics question- the elephant in the room. Plaid will never tackle that thorny issue if they can't grasp the nettle on independence I'm afraid.

KK I was probably in Cardiff on the day in question, but it was unlikely to have been me that you spoke to as I have no knowledge of the total costs involved for each AM The salaries have always been lower for The Assembly and office costs etc, given MP's are based London will be considerably lower. So that pretty much rules me out from the conversation. There are some issues re welsh speaking ability being irrelevant to certain WAG jobs, but I do not make an issue on that as I accept that my Eastern Wales experience and culture is very different that of say an inhabitant of the Llyn Peninsula where England is another Country, where as for me its is where I can go for a night out or a Sunday lunch There was a valid point about the troughing of failing AM's. This was remember at a time when for example 2AM's representing area's well within commuting distance chose not to live in them but in Penarth both claiming expenses for 2nd homes. There were many other abuses which I will not list now, but the rules were changed shortly after and not before good time. The issue is compounded by the list system which keeps people in line as they shin their way up the greasy pole. M Reckless excepted only two from Plaid and one from Labour have ever stepped out of line and put challenged the party line. Ministerial Volvo's 12 at one time, with many more chauffeurs(I actually got the figures for these from the press office which caused a minor uproar) These symptoms show of the root and branch reform required to sort out The Assemblies problems. All the Parties for their own particular reasons kept their council. The comfy relationship between the political class of the bay and the 3rd sector was also an issue. The now somewhat Infamous Cathy Owens, supposedly of the people was/is ex Rhodri;s office, Lead, Campaigner for more powers, Amnesty Int and now the far too comfy Deryn Consulting. Iwan Wyn jones and Jane Davidson getting jobs with organisations that they had a major hand in giving finance. There is a trough in Wales, two old men that should be retired are parachuted into positions as Police Commissioners when they should of all jobs be non-political are two of the most visible. To be fair to Neil M he has been the first to speak up on such issues..........PC put up candidates and won two! The pig was as much to gain attention and a focus for those that know and car little of the WAG etc. My appearance on the much mocked video shows this to be true! I thought Plaid's stance was the worst, as at the risk of repeating myself . The Assembly was and is less than universally popular and any long term goal depends not on hoarding power, but on a record of using it and the finance attached successfully, such that the thirst for devolved power is both strong and a natural development of this part(and for others too) of the world. Attacking the record of Labour on a tribal basis and then defending the obvious failing of the the institution that it controls because of a dogmatic wish is both inconsistent and self-destructive! It is most unfair to suggest that True Wales thinks any differently about Westminster abuses, it has been a very big topic of discussion I can tell you. Our raison d'etre has been the free ride that politicians get in The Assembly and Wales because of the lack of a viable media holding them and the WAG to account. It may have a little to do with the BBC move to Central Cardiff, or there again I might just be cynic! I have never on my many TV and radio appearances, been asked about Westminster., My views are here, but the BBC kept the conversations well under control! I have stated my position twice on here re public investment in Wales re the electrification programme and others. We do not get a good deal, but there again neither do many other regions too. It is because Westminster and the British Establishment is too London centric. not because of any "sod the Welsh" attitude! The obscene refurb of Westminster another example........put a new parliament near the NEC. Re devolution, we were all to a man and woman in favour of devolution, but not to a Westminster Light in Cardiff, but further down to the differing regions of Wales. If decisions are made in London or Cardiff, it matters little to anyone living in Wrexham. As an institution The Assembly basically tells the AHA's, Universities, Unitary Authorities etc what to do and does very little directly and that is one of the main faults. The rest is made up of a corrupt control of the third sector who can be blamed when it all goes wrong ,if it has not already been hung on the Westminster Tories! The break-up of the Britain and Independance(for now) we would have to differ on, but our aims were far closer to many others, despite what the press wanted to say of us. That said we were/are a broad church, so not all might think as me. We are very lucky in this country that for all their faults we have pretty clean civil service who do their best. Politicians are, and I do not often quote Reagan......like diapers and should be changed regularly and for the same reason. How is that for a different ending!

Ms Wood, looking at Twitter over the weekend, I was struck by the numbers among the youth tweeting "what I want an independent Wales to be like". The buzz was there. Time for all parties to form a plan for the future now?

Nigel, I'm warming to you, and there's always something in what you say I agree on. I'm afraid I just don't see Cardiff Bay as being a trough, and I condemn the attempt to direct populist fear and hate against Cardiff Bay (and implicitly other Welsh people) when in fact it's Westminster that is grotesque. TW never mentioned that. Perhaps you did, but you'll agree that TW existed and exists solely to attack devolution, and does so solely through the imputation of greed and privilege to the Assembly. I'm with you on Deryn, and on the revolving doors of politics and the 3rd sector , and the absurdity of stuffing policing with has-been politicians (your local lad Jeff Cuthbert being a case in point). Personally I think Deryn should be disbanded and lobbying registered in the Assembly. I also think that the patronage of the Labour party in every walk of our daily life - from the grotesquely philistine, city-destroying Cardiff council to the stuffing of health boards and ombudspeople and commissioners with Labour cronies - is detrimental to our country/region whatever you want to call it. But I don;t see TW calling that out - it's always an overt fear of devolution backed up by a dog whistle implicit fear that 'these welsh speakers are taking over and will break up Britain. If TW campaigned for an end to political cronyism they'd have my interest, if not my support. Thank you Tellyesin, that's rousing stuff, intelligently put. I know what you mean about the indoctrinated English. I was one of them once.

In order to receive a sizeable Plaid vote it must make itself more attractive to both the right and centre of the electorate. Pursuing only hard left policies which Leanne Wood prefers will keep Plaid in opposition indefinitely.

KK View us as rebels perhaps, fighting a guerilla war where the methods are not what we would choose, but are all that is available to us. TW was founded as it became apparent that The Assembly was not working as it should and could. There was an infamous split when one founder wanted to abolish it, but left over the issue. There was a difficult birth after Ron's badger spotting and A Micheal's imposition, after which it was given time, but for me as the Technium debacle played out and many other issues too, the need change became apparent. This was all before the referendum which became a focus, but asked the wrong question for us. "Are you happy with the achievements and structure of The Assembly" would have had a quite resounding NO. We were not given that choice, so tried to do what we could within the confines of the question asked. Our coverage has been so small, especially so given that like it or not, we represent the views of close to 30% of the voting population on one particular but wide ranging issue. To put that in perspective it is bigger that the aligned view of both PC and the Tories! We have the same questions asked over and over and getting to the nub of the issues being avoided. The trough is there throughout Wales and is the main reason that local government has not been reformed. Given to civil servants, it could have been sorted if not implemented within a year easily, yet because of political self interest(straight out of a ministers statement) we have duplication of infrastructure in the tiny Merthyr and BG two Unitary Authorities that work in the very poorest areas of the country. This is madness and repeated throughout Wales to a lesser degree. The Alun Davies a bruser if ever there was like Leighton Andrews before him is afraid to tackle it head on it shows the depth of the problem. This tribalism prevents real progress. The Cairns initiative mocked because it comes from a Tory, yet the future prosperity of South Wales is intrinsically linked to our relationship with Bristol and to a lesser degree that with Cheltenham and Gloucester. TW for all its faults does not have that problem as we came together and have work around reason not dogma. I am here in the lions den so to speak, not just to rattle a few cages, but to offer a view that you need to hear and try to understand, but not necessarily agree with. MP's listen to "Today" on R4 not RT where they might just learn a little more, the Western Mail has the same position in Wales. The tribal fighting in Wales has left us at the bottom the heap in so many areas and an economy propped up by government like no other area of the UK. The future lies in working together yes, but not to any one prescription, that is where the Independence movement see as goal what could be a possible consequence one day. Finally on this topic Tellyesin a well written piece, I applaud you just as loudly as I disagree with about how I might want a future Wales to look, but I understand your points entirely. I just hope you understand that the similar thoughts drove many into the growth of UKIP and therefore Brexit!

Wrexhamian TW is not a political party and has no ambition to be. It is however very much against what most in Wales do not want in terms of honesty and answerability in politics. If you read with just a little care above re The Assembly, much of it is there to be seen. But since you obviously did not I will copy and paste re abolition. "TW was founded as it became apparent that The Assembly was not working as it should and could. There was an infamous split when one founder wanted to abolish it, but left over the issue." Reform is the way forward, but that is a Thesis of work and there is no time here. I have said very little on here re the Welsh Language. I am personally quite ambivalent to it as it holds no great attraction to me. I do accept that it is somewhat different for others from very different areas of Wales. To be clear the use is falling, go check your sources. The Commissioner has great hopes, but I take no pleasure in my doubts. My feelings on independence are really quite similar. If it is to happen it should be a natural progression, not seen as a panacea for all of the ills of Wales. Whilst some here might be happy at the fiscal cost of a Fundamental Nationalist dream. It stalls for me whilst the Ambulance service etc struggles to a decent job. What I do object to is being told that my view is any less valid than any other of those on here. Nationalism in Wales has suffered from bigotry and has been a major reason why you can only carry 7% of the population with you. Plaid has a reputation for being the dour nasty, party of Wales, N Mc and DET very visible exceptions. I can understand the anger about where we are, but you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar! Trying to reconstruct anyone will get you nowhere, gentle persuasion perhaps, but then based only on fact not dogmatic views. I see no one as an enemy, certainly no Tory, Plaid or UKIP. BNP perhaps, but since UKIP ate their breakfast and did the country a great service in doing so they really are no more. Off for some Murphys now as I am not bitter!

I agree fully and left a comment on another article saying that the 7% supporting independence is good, if you add them to the 44% wanting autonomy. Add them together and you have a majority. Separate them and you're back to 7%. Reduction.

NIgel, I don;t agree that telling lies and smearing public servants is ever , as you put i 'all that is available' to anyone, and I'm sorry to hear you say that. I agree re the local authorities stuff you mention, but that's the Labour party for you, and I don;t recall TW ever raising that - you only ever attacked devolution, not the people running it (many of whom, like your pal Nigel Dix and Rachel Banner, Labour party members/councillors). So what you were in fact doing was criticising the Labour one-party state but you didn't want to call it that because Labour were your butties so you had to blame some monster called devolution and some imprecise snout in trough politicians and slag off Welsh speaking people. Judging form the twitter account of one of your people - the one with the inflatable pig - it's full of anti-Welsh speaker comments that would, if directed at any other community, be racist. But that's how the butties like it. So while I accept that you may be on the more articulate end of the True Wales spectrum, I have no respect for TW's methods or their message which was classic dog-whistle stuff. The fact that it was party run by one wing of the Labour party gave it a certain power and untouchabilty that it didn't deserve, despite the bankruptcy of its statements and its lack of any sort of constructive values. I even hear that Paul Murphy and Don Touhig was tacit supporter of it - in other words, the anti-devolution, Welsh-hating, Brit Nat wing of the Labour party. So let's not pretend that you were some kind of anti-establishment wave - as we'ce agreed, you never had anythign to say about Westminster, and the grotesque expenses scandal there and the continuing trough. Re the Bristol/South Wales thing. What Alun Cairns is doing is the same as what's always been done: tell us that our prosperity is linked to England, and then watch us get poorer and tell us that a continued dose of the same medicine will work when it won't. It's not new. You and TW and your ilk would rather be second class Brits hoovering scraps from the table than having a crack at standing upright. I am not advocating independence (about which I am not necessarily convinced, though I think it's important to aspire to), I'm advocating basic dignity. The South Wales Labour party have had total power at all levels of Welsh life. Their failure is only outmatched by their inexplicable success at retaining power in the face of that failure. If Plaid can't take the fight to Labour with the ruthlessness and bite that the SNP took to Scottish Labour - and it appears they can't - then Wales will continue to get the governance it deserves. Plaid wouldn't say boo to a goose at the moment. It would instead sit down with the goose and explain communitarian socialism to the goose, give it a pamphlet full of phrases like 'empowerment' and 'redistribution' and 'ending our dependency', and the the goose would walk away and vote for Corbyn if it was interested in Plaid's ideas, or for someone other than Plaid if it wasn't. End of goose analogy.

KK You do have point in that what you see in the media, was not always ideal, but it is not the whole picture. You see the answer to questions, but very often not the questions themselves which often were quite specific. There also was the question of simplifying the issues into digestible understandable chunks that will stick in peoples memory. I will give one example, when making a documentary in the The Assembly building in the week before the referendum. Both I and Cathy Owens were given questions to address. When I broadened the issues I was told to answer the question, as Cathy, which is fair enough in itself, but the questions were loaded in such a way that they the answers were kept on the Yes campaign's home ground. We had a choice, comply or give up. None of us(me leftish with a greenish hue) were politicians as such, but ordinary people that had seen enough and wanted change. The biggest problem with devolved power in Wales is the structure of the institution and the way it is then distributed(or lack of doing so) to poorly organised and/or financed institutions. That was never open to discussion and outside of places like this given to commissions that will give the answers that they were employed to give. That I or others belong(ed) to the Labour party, does not prevent acceptance to criticisms, some of which you mention. It is almost Animal Farm writ small for Wales this time, which was the reason for the pig, not the troughing which was secondary. For me I belong, but I am in the tent, but am peeing out! Our future being linked to Bristol is going to shown and writ large soon as the full effects of the bridge toll finishing. There are adverts in both Bristol and Newport on hoarding regarding relocation to Newport where property is far cheaper. This is for both commercial and domestic property. Watch for this in the news in the next year. I am not saying that I like the situation, but we have had an economy isolated for a long time and a re-alignment will come. Finally if this site ever became a back slapping place where everyone agreed, progress could never be made. We had had far too much time looking at ourselves for the answers whilst going around in ever decreasing circles. Read Supercapitalism by Robert Reich( W Clintons Economic Advisor) for a dissection of where the world is and why. I do not like what he says, it is very uncomfortable, but his analysis is correct. I wish the world was very different, but every time I see a long line of cars at McDonalds, it is brought home that the majority does not think like me and probably you too! Me I am off to Glanmores for Glenghetti and a view of the Castle!