The strange death of Welsh nationalism

The referendum was in 1997 NOT 1998.

Although the title of this article is overdone (trying to tie it in with a famous book on the Liberal Party), Plaid have to get out of being a party which simply attacks everyone from a position further to the left of the Labour Party (appealing to very few on the political spectrum) and making cheap shots attacking every spending cut in Wales without ever providing credible solutions to how Plaid would continue to pay for that same service/project.

Likewise and I welcome your contribution. I posted several times to point out flaws with the implementation of the 20mph limit and they were downvoted then removed. Sadly, censorship is rife on this site. Deviation from the prevailing narrative is not permitted. It is enormously toxic and utterly devalues the public service this site ought to be providing. In the end this site has become an echo chamber and it saddens me greatly to say this.

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I don't believe Plaid's vote is in decline. The polls suggest that it continues to flatline and the party struggles to make headway outside of its heartlands. In policy terms you couldn't put a cigarette paper between Plaid and Labour on most issues bar constitutional matters. I struggle to understand Lab4IndyWales' position. To me, the best outcome is that Plaid becomes a home to those indepenence supporting Labour members who share Plaid's values. In the event of Welsh Statehood I fail to see the purpose of having two progressive parties on the same political territory and like Dafydd Iwan said on the prospect of a merger - Why not? The main reason for Plaid's current situation is that in Mark Drakeford, Labour have a shrewd political operator. He had parked his tanks on Plaid territory and retains significant support from the pro-autonomy vote. However, should someone like Vaughan Gething who is not viewed as pro-autonomy as Drakeford becomes Labour leader, I believe things will begin to change. People are sick to death of thedebased and dysfunctional politics of the UK. There is space for a better constitutional vision. Present the electorate with a realistic constitutional alternative and it is there to be won.

Nationalism is at risk of dying for a number of reasons which have been well documented on earlier occasions. Plaid is part of the reason especially its "thought leadership" whoever they are. Far too easily distracted over recent decades into issues which would be better addressed when we have that vital self determination. Linked to this was the influx of screechy minority interests into YC. Not convinced they have gone away having switched focus into attacking national institutions from within. They act almost like a 5th column for "continuity colonialism" subverting Cymraeg and replacing it with an Anglophonic internationalism. New Empire ? Failure of Nationalist cause to attract and retain support of working class people. That should have been easier given how UK Labour have turned their backs on workers and sucked up to middle and seriously wealthy classes. In case they haven't noticed poor housing, patchy education, inaccessible health and related social services, low wages remain key components of most peoples' needs, not remote aspirations.

Plaid will never make progress until they accept Labour is the problem not the solution.

Not so much for NATIONALISM but more for INDEPENDENCE and freedom from England to govern ourselves for Welsh people by Welsh people not having English UNIONISTS telling us what we can and cannot do without the bloody interfernce from the London Parliament we will not have to pay for the Royals Nuclear missiles massive Defence budget H S 2 the white Elephant forget what the london based press tell you you cannot afford as we England keep you LOAD OF BOLONY IF THEY KEPT US THEY WOULD HAVE GIVEN US INDEPENDENCE A LONG TIME AGO

Oh here comes the flurry of "downvotes". Guess my post will be gone shortly. I once contacted Mark Mansfield about the consistency of moderation on his website. He had a right emotional meltdown. No pretence at investigating, or professionalism. Just "I've never heard of you" but "you were being offensive" and personal slurs against me then he blocked me when I replied with the same energy. He also banned me from the site. But seemingly didn't know how to ;-) TBH it's a clown show run by a big baby and you'll never get fairness of moderation on here.

Interesting, the matches I've been on have been a very mixed affair with people of all ages and a healthy dose of younger people. Are you sure you are talking about the same marches? 🤨 There may well be selective photos, as you say, but my eyes don't lie.

I don't think the Welsh independence cause is on the decline, particularly amongst the youth, which is the most important group. However, it does appear fractured, definitely on the electoral front. As the article suggests more door knocking canvassers, in Plaids case, is something that needs to happen. But also far more leaflets, newspaper articles and other activities, promoting the benefits of independence, rather than just the marches. Independence needs to be at the forefront of every Welsh person's mind.

Do we really think that Starmer's UK Labour will find traction in Cymru (the country soon to be formerly known as Wales)? .

Debate is always welcome for by the strength of our arguments we win. And what Silenced! seems not to appreciate, as does the author of this article, is that the independence movement is far broader than the street marchers, who can only ever be a cross-section representation of the people in one place and at any one moment in time. As one of the army of door knocking volunteers I can say that without a shadow of doubt there is widespread support in the community for independence, even amongst visitors from England but especially from people who know independence from the shackles of British colonialism such as Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Irish and so on. Independence is coming!

The independence movement (what Chris Carter refers to as "nationalism") is alive and well, as the Bangor march shows. Those who showed up included English settlers, so the claim of no diversity is invalid. But Carter is right to stress that it is not the indy movement but Plaid Cymru who have a popularity problem; it is very revealing that while support for independence or for devo-max has increased in recent years, support for Plaid Cymru has declined then levelled out at a figure well below that of the Wales Tory branch. The party's problems are five-fold: 1/ the consensus of support for Drakeford's and Labour's 'soft nationalism' which has pulled the rug from under Plaid's feet; 2/ a policy overlap between Labour and PC on almost everything save the most fundamental of these constitutional issues; 3/ the allegations of trouble within the party, as mentioned briefly by Carter; 4/ the fallout from several years of identity politics promoted by Leanne Wood (and begun under Ieuan Wyn Jones) as an attempt to move away from the label of "party of the Welsh language". It is now Welsh Labour who have promoted the Welsh language successfully, whereas Plaid were initially still thinking 'Blue Books' and seeing the language as an electoral millstone; 5/ the unavoidable reality that Welsh Labour are fully embedded in the largest population centres, and it'll take an earthquake for that to change. They'll even survive the right-wing media hostility to 20 mph. Rhun ap Iorweth is probably a capable leader, but he's got his work cut out. Better, perhaps, for them to focus on local problems that will win them votes in councils and constituencies where Labour have either proved toothless or don't want to know; and there are plenty of such problems.

Political parties are NOT about votes or MPs etc - they are about delivering outcomes and the positive change they seek. Plaid remains the most unsuccessful succesdful party in these Islands….with out a doubt. Even the great “ Lord from Meirionnydd’ saw this. its influence and effect on others has been profound and its talented leaders across the years have delivered through moving Wales forward. i awaited a delayed train change at Wolverhampton station some dozen years back with an impressive and still sharply dressed Aberystwyth bound academic type. He was happy to expound his views on Plaid and its role in Wales to the three of us over a coffee. Without revealing his own legal, parliamentary & ministerial and judicial backound in Plaid and Labour he shared openly 50 years of experience as an observor of Plaids influence across Wales. This Jurist and Peer offerd a light touch masterclass of policy and cultural issues that Plaid had directly and in directly brought about.

Plaid Cymru have not yet grasped the list of recommendations ..a list of 82 actually in to their naughty and disgraceful activities as reported by their own investigations. No Troll comments please.

It destroyed itself by trying to appease minorities of minorities. We British are in the position we are because we have a history of self destruction. It’s a terrible British (Cymric) characteristic that those over the Border feed on.