The General Election results show that Plaid Cymru has a mountain to climb before 2021

I agree there is some problem with the language. It is the Jeremy Corbyn of Plaid Cymru. I am a woman of a certain age, and when I was younger I was told that the Welsh language was dying out, and there was absolutely no point in bothering with it. This was, somewhat peculiarly, in a school that held an annual Eisteddfod and also had the occasional Welsh hymn in assembly. In fact, I had to be told, when I first encountered it at age 11, what Welsh was- by a child from Yorkshire. Then, sometime in the eighties, it seemed Welsh went in an instant-from something of an irrelevance to being more or less compulsory. I have good friends who are first language Welsh speakers of a similar age, who had absolutely no idea that there are those among us who learned absolutely no Welsh (Latin, yes!) This is of course divisive, and "divide and conquer" is page 1 of the Coloniser's Manual. If any school subject went from "useless" to "essential" some years after one had left, it would be simply wrong. This has caused bitterness among non-Welsh speakers. Not the Welsh speakers fault, but Plaid ignore the side-effect of such thoughtlessness at their peril. People I know who shun Plaid do so on the grounds that they only have the language and independence as an agenda. Which I know not to be true, but it is not helpful when Plaid twitter that started in English discussions lapse into Welsh and do not lapse back again. It enforces a stereotype (again see Coloniser Manual.) Plus there is a widespread assumption that YesCymru and Plaid are the same. It has been pointed out to me how poor the Plaid votes are locally, as if that were in and of itself a barrier to Welsh independence. Coloniser trick 3 - conflating all nationalisms.

Agree with Ifans analysis From canvassing only a few know what Plaid is like Most smile with sympathy for the irrelevant little party soldiering on, others say politely Sorry I don't speak Welsh, suggesting, And I dont want to be made r to, all this bilingual everything is wasteful PC correctness And most are hostile to the unafordable and dangerous break up that independence would be. Plaid could be the party for decentralised power in all senses. With inspirational leadership too set the direction and horizon we can locally find our own way to implement

Katie Hopkins Twitter to Varsi (who worries about direction of Tory party) "It's our party, now". If you needed confirmation that the old Conservative party is not just English Nationalist, but heading into Tommy Robinson territory, Hopkins provides it. If you are in the Labour party, or have voted Labour, you must now realise that the "mountain to climb" means not only wishing our culture to survive, but to remain a fundamentally decent society. If you have ever read any of Hopkins tripe, you will know the direction England is headed and should hasten to join Plaid.

How averse would the membership be to a name change? WNP (Welsh National Party) or CNP (Cymru National Party) Trying to dissuade voters that it is not a party for Welsh Speakers when the two words are in Welsh. The Party of Wales as a translation has too many words in it. The areas where Plaid Cymru are strong in Westminster, the Green Dam, happen to be where the highest population of Welsh Speakers live outside of Cardiff. Perhaps that is tinkering around the edges along with a symbol change from the Welsh poppy but if Plaid Cymru and Welsh Labour cannot find common ground then they are forever going to be fighting the Conservatives and any other right wing party that comes along. The inner tension of having a small c conservative membership in the Fro Cymraeg when the Leadership is avowedly Socialist can only be solved by further navel gazing or taking prompt action before 2021.

Wales isn't Scotland or northern Ireland there are few comparisons and as much as it hurts me to say there is no appetite for independence and never will be. Plaid Cymru are an irrelevance to the English speaking majority in east Wales they are flogging a dead horse and would be far better pushing for successful devolution within the UK.

This is one of the most perceptive opinion pieces about Plaid Cymru which I've read in recent times, and it sets out the party's situation and dilemma both sympathetically and realistically. Every new Plaid Cymru leader seems to feel impelled to begin their leadership stint by giving the independence drum a good loud bang. Maybe that's inevitable, since the cause of independence is core to Plaid's corporate DNA. But I recall Leanne Wood beginning in like fashion, and yet I presume the party jettisoned her in favour of Adam Price because members felt that her leadership hadn't delivered the goods - or at least enough of the goods! - as well as they'd hoped. Is 'doing the same over' really the best strategy?! I remember some years ago reading an article about the building of the modern Italian nation, in which the writer commented that if, around 1840, you'd asked a cross-section of the inhabitants of that boot-shaped southern Eurpean peninsula how they self-identified, his guess was that not one of them would have answered 'I'm an Italian'. Rather they'd have described themselves as Piedmontese, Parmesan, Venetian, Neopolitan or Calabrian. Pressed to identify with something less parochial, he thought they'd say 'Well, I'm a Catholic'! Even the language that they spoke i n the south wasn't then readily comprehensible by the folk up north, and vice versa I suspect you could say something similar about contemporary Wales. The sense of 'Welshness' is an absolutely authentic phenomenon; but it's still primarily and instinctively 'felt' in terms of a local rather than a national sense of belonging: 'Oooh, Valleys girl, I am'; Newportonian or Cardiffian; Cardi; 'I'm from Ynys Môn, Mam Cymru!' For some, the Welsh language is an intrinsic part of that belonging. For others it just isn't. Plaid Cymru's effectively managed to 'get through' in y Fro Cymraeg, but not in any lasting way in any of all the other 'Waleses'. Doing so isn't a hopeless task, because there have been some temporary successes beyond 'y Fro'; I remember Plaid taking the councils in Merthyr Tudful and Cwm Rhymni years ago - they flared for a time though they ultimately went out. But in others - think Sir Fflint! - they've always been the dampest of squibs, and they still are. I think Ifan Morgan Jones is on to something in his suggestion that 'perhaps the way forward is to realise that the basis for any national identity is maintaining a rather superficial wholeness while actually supporting the coexistence of many different parts'. The fact is that Wales isn't like Scotland, where a discrete national self-understanding with some distinct national institutions - notably the law and education - was forged in the early modern period when England and Scotland were clearly separate political entities. Wales, on the other hand, was practically incorporated into England bit by bit in mediaeval times when the nation was still divided into squabblesome early mediaeval-style princedoms leading directly to the point where some mid-20th century legal encyclopaedia used by lawyers , local authorities, &c., had the entry: 'WALES - see "England"'. It's rational politics in Scotland for the SNP to bang the independence drum, because they've shown that there are significant numbers of votes for it. But Wales is different, and for Plaid Cymru to start to make a significant mark beyond 'y Fro', echoing the SNP looks unlikely to be a way forward.

Good and realistic analysis of Plaid's performance by the author in general here, pulling no punches with his words. Although he does actually fail to mention the elephant in the room as regards Plaid's dire showing across the valleys-their decision to go against the result of the Welsh vote in 2016, and hitch themselves so shamelessly to the metropolian 'people's vote' and remain alliance bandwagon. - 16% in Blaenau Gwent and - 8% in the Rhondda( two of the constituencies with the highest Welsh-born percentages in the whole of Wales) is a shocking return for a national party, and says it all about the huge gamble taken by Adam Price. What this election has just proved is that electors have long, long memories. They waited 3 long years to exact their revenge on a political class which wanted to subvert the biggest ever democratic vote ever held on these isles. And managed to decapitate several of the leading Remain figures in quite a ruthless fashion. My sense is that this folk memory will still be in play in the Leave areas of Wales in 18 months time, and that voters in those areas will just not vote for Plaid in view of that fact. That is a problem not just for Plaid but for the whole national movement. All the signs are that Boris Johnson will soon seek to downgrade both the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly as part of his Global Britain brand. Quite literally, the Welsh Election in 18 months time, could be Wales's last chance saloon. That means that nationalists have to engage in some serious out of the box thinking how to approach things for this election. As far as democratic choices for voters is concerned, it's likely to be the most promising election ever held here in Wales, with GWLAD offering a small 'c' nationalist agenda and Neil Mc Evoy's Propel party also providing a new populist choice, in addition to Plaid this time round. But this in itself will be of no use at all unless the different parties manage to work together to maximise the nationalist vote for the wider good of Wales. Perhaps a leaf needs to be taken out of that wide ranging coalition put together by Johnson to win that overwhelming victory last Thursday. Natural conservatives, Brexit diehards, disaffected Labour voters, people fed up of the Brexit impasse, and those seeking a renewed English patriotism were all coralled together for one purpose. Could a similar nationalist coalition of interests be formed here in Wales for 2021? Could it perhaps involve YES Cymru in some shape or form in addition to the above parties? Could 'independent' nationalists also stand in some places as part of such a coalition, especially in view of Wales's affinity towards local identities. It's a big ask in such a short space of time. It would also require a level of magnaminity and realpolitik from Plaid seldom seen up to this point. It could possibly involve Plaid withdrawing from some key areas to allow other nationalist groupings to have a clear run there unencumbered by all the failures of the past, both distant and recent. Plaid could still lead this nationalist platform as the largest and longest established nationalist party, but it could also operate as a facilitator and enabler to maximise the vote in areas where they choose not to stand. Now that would be a pre-election pact that all nationalists could support!

Plaid are strong on history, but rather weak on geography. If you are in Caernarfon, Carmarthen or Ceredigion you will see Wales and the world from a different angle than if you are looking from Chirk or Chepstow, Wrexham or Welshpool. The difference is as great as that between 'the north' and 'the south' in England, though you would never know it from the policies they propose and the stories they tell. I am not sure why this blind spot exists, perhaps someone with a greater knowledge of the party, its origins and DNA and its membership can explain.

So very much to do, so little time to do it in. Rather than struggle up that mountain towards the summit or look to change in any way to widen their appeal, Plaid Cymru may look at the UK election results and may conclude that in 2021 Labour's seats in the Senedd will be down and there won't be enough Liberal Democrats to make up the numbers, so yes, Plaid Cymru will inevitably be in government - as junior partners in a coalition with Labour .

"Plaid Cymru meanwhile have tended towards a more top-down approach, which has caused it problems in Llanelli, Blaenau Gwent, Ynys Môn, and Cardiff – i.e. pretty much everywhere they had a realistic hope of winning in 2021." The SNP also has a top-down approach when it comes to organising disorganised branches. It is extremely successful as it refuses to take any nonsense from them. What happened in three out of these four areas with Plaid Cymru is that people's egos got the better of them, with people refusing to play by the rules. Without rules, a party cannot function. Neil McEvoy and similar characters have destroyed the hopes of Plaid winning Cardiff, as scores of ordinary members either felt too disillusioned or frankly felt too afraid to go to any meetings. Plaid Cymru has many problems, but being too top-down is not one of them – being too soft on nonsense, quite frankly, is.

It is *because* Plaid Cymru centrally has left valleys constituencies to their own devices that it is failing in those areas. A more 'hands off' approach would lead to utter disaster. Constituencies such as Merthyr, Cynon Valley and to a lesser extent Islwyn have little manpower and do not have the organisation of other constituencies where there is a staff member, for example. Allowing people with no background in design, political communication or translation to make leaflets and infographics is a basic oversight by the party centrally (which ends up in some cringeworthy material being given out in some constituencies by well-meaning activists). The constituencies where Plaid has improved its result this time receive help from Ty Gwynfor at general election time, because there is literally *no point* in wasting time in unwinnable constituencies (be that because of the voting system, people voting Labour to keep the Tories out, etc.). Plaid Cymru centrally will absolutely have to intervene in constituencies in which it hopes to improve its result, because places like Llanelli and Ynys Môn are not being won because of a lack of organisation.

I think that idea of a broad nationalist election pact for 2021 has got legs. We've got to try something different or else it's goodnight vienna, if you look at the dominance of the Tories now. The valleys (with 45% of the Welsh population) are crucial in all this. Welsh labour voters need to be attracted to such a new nationalist pact/coalition. In view of the toxic relationship between Plaid and Labour in the Valleys and as Plaod have now got this millstone of the 'people' s vote' round their necks-these voters need to see they're voting for something different this time round. And of course Plaid have already set a precedent here with their standing down in seats for the Remain alliance. So, easier now to stand down for a form of Welsh Alliance maybe? Although i want Indepedence for Wales, maybe that shouldn't actually be the focus of a Welsh pact. Maybe it should just have a simple slogan of 'Let Wales be Wales' with an emphasis on increased powers, and economic fairness(e.g control over Water and Electricity export).

Why does Plaid have to change it's stance when Brexit will do the work for them? There is a very high chance that Johnson's Brexit will ruin the Welsh economy making us poorer than we already are. We've seen the results of Tory hard right policy in Wales before during the 80s - it left us devastated, jobs in the Valleys demimated. There was a rise in the support for an independent Wales as a result. Blair realised the threat and gave us devolution. Tory warped ideology is doing it again - this time there must be no appeasement of the issue - just independence - full stop.

I think this is a rational and thoughtful article by Ifan. I don't agree with creating separate 'Plaid Cymrus' but the analysis of the result is perceptive. I'm not enthused by the results but I am relieved. I was also relieved when we went up to 4 seats under Leanne Wood. My views haven't changed, Westminster is a long hard slog and at least we survived. Where we fell short was we could not offer to 'get Brexit done'. We don't believe in Brexit or in implementing the referendum result. There is also no way Adam could have switched tack to that, members are not in that place, so he can't be blamed. Giving Plaid in the valleys autonomy wouldn't have changed this. Would Plaid valleys or north-east Wales candidates have campaigned on getting Brexit done? I doubt it, members don't agree with that. We face an enormous challenge then, if this Conservative increase also becomes embedded in the Senedd. Sorry but we cannot contest the Senedd on the basis of stopping or thwarting Brexit. I am not advocating panic stations but the constituencies we might gain in the Senedd are mostly places which voted to leave the EU. Let's take a look at that, using Adam's proven skills of carving out clear positions. To just comment on Welsh ("the language"). It is the difference between Plaid have 4 seats and us having 0 seats. Comments and articles must understand it is not a bolt-on and that Plaid Cymru would not have been formed without it.

What's the single best thing about Plaid? Does that appeal to more than 20% of the population? In those questions are the problem and solution.

A lot of soft plaid cymru voters around me never voted or a few went tory/brexit this election if you wondering why the vote fell. They said they wanted democratic outcome of 2016 referendum to be respected.... many were annoyed at plaid on doorstep. Thought plaid leadership arrogant for ignoring them. Even some soft remainers werent happy and didnt vote

Regionalism, separatism, petty nationalism – all were made redundant by the Industrial Revolution, the demise of feudalism and the forging of a nation of workers who looked out for each other, who were determined to fashion a new and better world by their own power, efforts and inventiveness. The historic process created during the Renaissance, the Enlightenment and subsequent leaps in scientific thought, created our modern secular society with its rich tapestry of culture. Once separatism is defeated, progress can be made in deepening unity – STUC, Welsh TUC and TUC moving closer together, a common football league, British teams at international competitions (rejected for the 2012 Olympics!) could be among hundreds of consequences.