Scrap the Closed List voting system - or risk the end of devolution

If Plaid go with closed lists they won't get my vote again... What happened to the Falklands and Argentina item?

Well argued article

I'm a strong believer in devolution and independence, but the closed list system is an afront to our democracy.

A well constructed and thoughtful contribution of course but just WHO is behind this closed party hack proposal ?

Absolutely agree with Martin's call for closed lists to be dropped, and with his suggestion that the fairer and more democratic Single Transferable Vote be adopted for future elections to what will be a expanded Senedd. Those of us who struggled to convince a somewhat sceptical welsh public of the case for devolution for wales over a quarter of a century ago didnt do so to put alot of the power over who gets to sit in Wales' parliament in the hands of party hacks (which is what the closed list system sadly does to a large extent) But let's be honest here - we all know how this most unsatisfactory state of affairs has come about. It was apparently the only way labour in Wales would back a increase in the numbers of Senedd members. As electing senedd members this way is the voting method most likely to ensure Labour will continue to be the govt of Wales. Think Martin's being a bit alarmist however when he asserts that it could lead to the end of devolution for Wales. The Westminster Parliament has a voting system (FPTP) which disenfranchises millions of people at every election but its future isnt in any danger (indeed you'll still see it being lauded in many quarters as 'the mother of parliaments'.).

It will be even more noticeable in rural areas where constituencies are going to be much larger. Is an individual standing on a platform to save Withybush Hospital for example going to have to campaign on the streets of Aberystwyth to get themselves elected? What happens if all elected members happen to come from one single area? At least in Westminster you're guaranteed at least one representative for your constituency, and can be recalled by petition if necessary. This is definitely going to play into the hands of not just the anti-devolutionists, but also those who want to maintain first past the post. "Electoral reform doesn't work, look at Wales!!" Unfortunately for some within Labour gender quotas is more of a priority than proper democracy.

STV please. The closed list systrm is awful. It favours Tories in two contradictory ways. First, it returns members such as Andrew RT Davies who would not be likely to win a constituency election. Secondly, they will, without any sense of shame or irony use it to drag the Senedd into disrepute. They are a clear danger to our parliament. Sadly, on this matter, they will have a legitimate point. Closed lists gives power to parties. It is wholly unacceptable and it will bring the Senedd into disrepute. It must be stopped.

I agree with those concerned. We want to engage voters not alienate them. If there are serious flaws with the Closed List voting system should be either re-evaluated , changed, or dropped entirely. Today we had Anglophile Robert Buckland react to the likelihood of Policing & Criminal Justice being devolved to Wales. His hostility was evident. He ranted, and I quote. "Devolving Justice powers to Wales would be a calamitous mistake". And he said, "the England & Wales jurisdiction was a good thing". The England & Wales jurisdiction a good thing, Robert? What, Wales being regarded as an appendage of England where another country controls our justice system even though our Senedd is legislature. I've often heard bills past always referred to an English laws even when applicable to Wales. Sorry, but why is it that anything devolved to Wales is a bad idea and is better controlled centrally in London but both Scotland & Northern Ireland are free to control their Criminal Justice systems. People forget. Wales Criminal Justice system is controlled in London because we were annexed by England in 1535. And yes I'm referring to something that happend over 400 years ago but it's relevant seeing we as a country would have developed our own Criminal Justice system like other countries if it were not for England dissolving our political system and laws of Hywel Dda codified in the 9th century over 100 + years before England & English existed as country & people in 927ad. See, power in our hands (Wales) is better than in theirs (England) . We have more pressing issues than the Closed List system to worry about. And sure, the public needs to be more aware where power lies, but it doesn't help when the narrative is controlled by London and those little England sellouts like Robert Buckland oppose devolution let alone the devolution of Policing & Criminal Justice to Wales. The Conservatives don't even like the idea of the power to create a national bank holiday to celebrate Saint David in Wales for pity sake. If it was Saint George would get their gushing approval. Look how quick they acted to create a bank holiday to celebrate the coronation of King Charles. And remember what WS David TC Davies said how creation of a bank holiday to celebrate Saint David would be confusing? Strange, it never affected the Scots & Northern Irish who had the power devolved. It would only affect Wales. I find Unionists fear celebrating Wales & Welshness is a bad thing. It promotes the idea that Wales is a country in its own right, has a separate identity to England, so favour assimilating Wales into a greater England there favoured goal. Problem us. We don't really have our own independent media enjoyed by Scotland because of historical suppression of anything Welsh by Westminster. Broadcasting isn't devolved and English narrative favoured because they fear Wales will become more independent and that's not acceptable to Unionists. After all, Wales is England's first trophy nation captured in 1282. First in last out.

Excellent article. Closed lists are an attack on the democratic right of people to choose our representatives and the proposal should be dropped. Why on earth did anybody think this would be an acceptable idea? Every voter has the right to know who we are voting for, otherwise our Senedd would just become an elected dictatorship!

Could not agree more. STV is the better option by far.

There is a classic 2013 book by the late political scientist Peter Mair, called "Ruling the Void", the hollowing out of EU and UK politics to another level and to the point of popular disaffection and elite rule. That's precisely what has happened and has given us Brexit and every other manifestation of recent years. At a time when politicians (all parties) are regarded as something you scrape of your shoes and virtually every Welsh institution is now in crisis, the very LAST thing we need is another brick through the window of electoral engagement and GENUINE ACCOUNTABILITY We really are in the Alice in Wonderland world where the ACTUAL meaning of such words and democratic practice is Humpty Dumpty's "who is to master, that is all!"

Compliance & uniformity of thinking is the biggest feature of Cardiff Bay politics. The corruption of Welsh politics is greater than that of Westminster, but there is barely any scrutiny, so people do not know. I was expelled from the Bay for asking questions of lobbyists, when told not to do so by all major Plaid players. With hindsight, that was the main issue: hence closed lists & control.

It would be worse than an eternal three-line whip. There is huge difference between unity and group-think. Oh and please, get the writer a copy of Fowler ... "should not be proceeded with" !!?? What's wrong with "Should not go ahead" ?

If asked, I believe most people in Wales would support Senedd elections being conducted using the most democratic procedure available, i.e., the Single Transferable Voting system. The only reason that the lesser democratic Closed List system is to be foisted on us is because Welsh Labour has a vested interest in it. This is because it is very likely to, unfairly, give them a considerably higher percentage of Senedd Members than their overall percentage vote merits. Moreover, this system is almost certain to reduce voter turnout from already low levels (considerably less than 50%).                                                                                                                                                            

" Deal cooked up between....." sums up the integrity of this Closed List scam. To ensure some quality of democratic process the electorate should be able to vote for as many candidates as needed to make up the representation at Y Senedd. To give the new structure some semblance of realism let's have 32 x 3 members or even 48 x 2, but 16 x 6 with Closed Lists sounds like a totalitarian gathering.

This proposal, if enacted, would mean the likely leader of the opposition - yes, I mean the Tory leader - would effectively be elected by a mere handful of elderly extremists who can be bothered to stump up for party membership. Just as our next FM is being decided upon by however many members Welsh Labour has. Democracy Kremlin-style.

Martin, I believe this article has many points, but I think it lacks a modern understanding of how the tussle and compromise of voting systems in a democracy works and is at times misleading. We already use the closed list system to elect 33% of our MSs (20), and that iin itself hasn't posed a risk to devolution. The other 40 out of 60 MSs are elected by First Past The Post, which as shown by every UK general election in the last years, is even worse at getting the people (especially the parties) we want elected. In many instances, proportional representation would have led to a completely different government or coalition. Scotland elects their parliament under a 45% closed list system and it is genuinely the most proportional parliamentary system in the UK. Has it harmed their devolution? I would say it strengthened it because it allowed the SNP, Scottish Greens, Scottish Socialist Party to get elected from the start and enact a more creative vision for their future. We don't live in a place where independents get most of the votes. It's parties. I'd love it change to a flexible list instead where we can chose our favourite candidate from a list of independents and parties or rank them as is done in STV. However, Welsh Labour are scared of Single Transferable Vote. No Labour councillors in Wales have voted for that change in the council voting system because it would take away their council majorities (in strategic places like Cardiff and Newport) overnight. LABOUR DO NOT WANT PR, and it's only other parties that will ever push them into doing it. So, in light of this, I think a switch to 100% PR is a good thing and is actually fairly radical for a party that do everything to be dull and safe as possible. Carwyn Jones wanted to switch back to full FPTP (shudder), and Vaughan Gething would do as well if it was up to him. It also would differentiate us more from England and Scotland. Labour members choose the Welsh Labour list order as far as I know, so it's not completely party led. I feel like this article has a different agenda though. I agree that STV or a semi-open list would be better, but I've never seen such a dislike of a voting system that is genuinely the type of step forward that Labour have resisted for literally decades. And I think it all comes back to the fact that we think it's a part of our heritage to not deserve nice things. The UK as a whole hates change of any sort, but once those changes are enacted, most of the time, nothing happens and people go on with their lives. The amount of propaganda against changes to voting systems in the UK is insane compared most countries. It proobably comes from the idea that Britain ideologically understands how numbers work, but it doesn't. People are activity discouraged and disenfrancised from taking part in voting and having vague grasp on democracy, and I believe this article isn't helping counter any of this information.

I fee like if PC somehow had anything approaching a majority, local elections would be STV, and Welsh elections would be STV or open list PR by now. Labour are more inviting to lobbyists I'd say from what I've heard. Closed-list PR is pretty common around Europe and better than first past the post at least.