Brexit is a UK Government power grab which will undermine our national voice

Plaid Cymru, get your head out of the bubble. You are losing votes and potential votes quickly. Yes you are right, Westminster wont help Wales with the same funding as the EU, and yes EU are better at Welsh language rights.... But you must face the fact that the higher levels of the EU are totally undemocratic - just look how they ignored Catalonia and hurt Greece. UK State-capitalism has many criticisms that need evaluation (just as ignoring the Welsh periphery), but lets be honest about the EU's failings and lack of democratic accountability

Many people who voted leave in Scotland and Wales, turn out to be people, on average, not naturally Plaid Cymru voters - they are people who have done well out of the UK union and reject any SNP, Plaid Cymru radicalism to change their cosy status quo and jobs

I agree with this article almost completely. There are just two things I disagree with: 1. I do not respect the result of the referendum. Prof Simon Wren-Lewis explains this standpoint much better than I could in a few words, here: http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2017/08/22/what-does-respecting-the-referendum-result-mean/ 2. We do not necessarily share a common future. I am fortunate enough to be fluent in a few European languages. And sad as it would be for me to leave Wales, if Brexit goes bad, I will be actively seeking a way out; maybe to Germany, or Scandinavia. I would like to see Plaid being more definite in its anti-Brexit stance. It makes many of the right noises, but generally stops just short of opposing it. We do not have to respect a referendum won on lies and misinformation with a gerrymandered electorate. We should at the very least be calling for a vote on the final deal, with remain as the alternative option. Rhun alludes to this, but I would like to see it as Plaid policy. Then our MPs can stop using phrases such as "We ARE leaving the EU" (Liz & Ben both used words to this effect recently, and it is very disappointing to hear). In a party with a higher percentage of Remain voters than any other party (according to at least one poll), this should be an electoral advantage. It would also set us clearly apart from Labour and the Tories, with the Lib Dems now being an irrelevance in Wales. See you in Manchester on Sunday Rhun?

More special pleading. We had the Remain campaign, much better funded than the Leave campaign, telling us daily that Brexit would be far far worse than they're even saying now that it will be. The UK government paid to post a big fat booklet of Remain propaganda through my door, for heaven's sake - the Leave campaign wasn't nearly well-enough financed to do that. I have a particular problem with the argument that we should have a second referendum 'on the deal' because we didn't know what it might be at the time of the first referendum. Of course we did. We had the Remain campaign telling us the whole of the time that it would be dreadful, but the country - and by that of course I mean Wales - voted Leave nonetheless. I honestly can't think of a single argument for Brexit which isn't also an argument for Welsh independence. I can't think of a single argument for remaining in the EU which isn't also an argument for Wales remaining part of the UK. I can't understand why Plaid Cymru can't see this, but I certainly can understand why they are a spent force in Welsh politics if they continue to spout this sort of stuff.

The lack of independence is a serious issue, how much do we have in Wales. The lies peddled about health in the referendum is unacceptable, but deceit on this issue and others continues. The Welsh Conservatives are saying that "Wales has been at the bottom of the league table of home nations for GVA per head for 20 consecutive years". This is no thanks to English Government policy. The Welsh Conservatives (@WelshConserve) are saying that "Welsh people are twice as likely as English people to be on NHS waiting list". But this is because so many elderly and sick English immigrants are pushed on NHS Wales and we have to bleed funds from our schoolchildren's education to fund them. The Welsh government is not restricting elderly English immigration or social cleansing from England and access to our overstretched health, and education services, it cannot as this is a "reserved area of competence". So we can't restrict harmful immigration from England although the English Labour Party and the English Conservative Party deem such desirable for England. The English government (unhampered by reserved areas of competence) can and are implementing a Social Cleansing Policy, sending a mass of people to Wales, without funding, the majority of whom (89%) have a pre existing medical condition, physical and psychological disability. These immigrants are dependents on our economy rather than productive. The English government (the colonial power) which, without interference, looks after health and education in England, can destroy our Health, Wealth, and education at will, with Welsh labour implementing it. As is happening NOW. Sadly it would seem as if the English government had written a book "How to destroy the Welsh economy and services for dummies", and the Welsh government is working to it. Even worse Welsh labour is funding, from our restricted resources, the housing associations which are providing housing for the people who are cleansed from England (hundreds of millions of pounds) instead of on our health and education of our schoolchildren. This is self destructive maladministration. When you're in a hole stop digging. After 20 years of Welsh labour government our schoolchildren's education is markedly worse, in health we now know there are nearly three times as many people waiting longer than a year for surgery in Wales than in England, despite the vastly bigger population. The economy in Wales has a declining GVA (gross value added) per head relative to England, due to an increasing number of dependents from England. The current GVA figures are amongst the worst figures for Wales relative to the UK average since records began back in 1954. Without real control in our hands in Wales we cannot effectively address these fundamental issues.

Brexit will be bad for Welsh entrepreneurs, farmers, artists, and push taxes up to support the NHS which dear Svetlovna from Poland is leaving because she doesn't feel welcome being a nurse hear anymore. Brexit is bad for business. And its success is largely due to apathy and lack of civic involvement and civic education. Why on earth are we in a country where most of its own citizens do not even understand how their own Parliament works? Utterly ridiculous.

When the peoples of Wales realise the real costs of Brexit, the costs to our farmers and manufactured exportsthen the people will want to remain in the European Union. If Wales loses out , there is a power grap by the UK, and worse of all dumped with the UK's (England's) problems such as prisoners and nuclear waste.... I feel there will be a feeling of bitterness with the UK's political elite. Plaid Cymru must effectively communicate with the people of Wales, address issues as they appear to steer this country towards independence. Wales and England is diverging with separate interests and the UK is not severing either. The UK is unreformable !

Thank you for an article, that is an excellent contribution to the debate about Brexit. To develop the full potential of Wales and Scotland, it is essential for the UK to move towards a Federal structure, whether we remain in or leave the EU. [I suppose eventually Ulster could opt for an Irish Federation, retaining the Stormont government for the North.]

Rhun uses a lot of emotional appeals to associate in the reader's mind the EU with European culture, heritage and connections. Meanwhile the actions of the EU clearly indicate its contempt for European values, democracy, and culture. On the one hand it has overseen and encouraged a continuing mass-migration of men from Africa and the Middle East - resulting in an upsurge in crime, rapes and no-go areas. It is currently in the process of punishing Poland and Hungary for being reluctant to take their share of 3rd world economic migrants. And Rhun still pretends a nation can be 'independent' in the EU. The Single Market and Customs Union that Rhun wants Wales to remain in is a rigged game ensuring that Big Finance and monopolistic corporate control continues to reign supreme, trampling over the needs of local economies. Just look at what has happened to Greece and Latvia, thanks to imposed fictionalisation and enforced austerity. Their biggest exports are now people fleeing the economic wasteland the EU has created. Remaining in the Single Market and Customs Union is tantamount to staying in the EU in all but name. Rhun should know that. Perhaps he does. What the Brexit referendum result has clearly shown is a deep mistrust and contempt for the demos, the people part of democracy, among our professional political class. They (including Plaid Cymru) share this contempt with the EU. The fact that Plaid Cymru is doing everything in its power to frustrate the will of the Welsh electorate shows what side they identify with. It really is 'us the people' against a oligarchy composed of Finance Sector, Big Business, and their client governments in Brussels, London and Cardiff. We should be making making connections with beleaguered nations throughout Europe to bring the EU down, not prop it up. The same here in the British Isles. The UK establishment is now virtually a rogue state that needs to be abolished. I think historians will look back on this time as a huge lost opportunity for Plaid Cymru to capitalise on the Brexit result and secure real independence for the Welsh nation outside of the UK and EU.

I see little point in crying over spilt milk. Taking sides on an evenly split issue only limits appeal to less than half of the people. Many of those funding things to manipulate public opinion and feeding the fesire for the break up of the EU are old fashioned opportunists. There are opportunities for us here, but I don't think we are necessarily well placed to exploit them and my fear is that we will become the exploited - plus ca change. For many Brexit was about getting control back for Britain and Wales was not in the debate. For many it was simply a dislike of what they'd been led to believe the EU was and was aspiring to be. My sense is that it was mostly a vote against the EU, than any thought of a Great British solution. Plenty probably considered that we could well be worse off collectively in the short term, but their circumstances meant that they were already badly off and the effect couldn't really be much worse. The opportunity is to make this about Wales, but the power shifts are not going our way currently. Our arguments about Wales being viably separate are now more valid than ever before, but we don't have the tools to exploit that position and I worry that we are totally unprepared to deal with the environment we are now in. We have the opportunity now to find the narrative that people can associate with, but we don't have that yet. The default narrative is Britain is best as it always was (or how it was perceived to have been) and that's not a good one for Wales.

Most people in the UK have a poor understanding of what the EU is about. The perception of many that it's a "Common Market" and is or shouldn't be anything else reveals the level of ignorance. This runs right to the top. In appears that it's taken six months of negotiations for the Prime Minister and her team of talents to realize that for the EU it's not all about the money. The logic then follows that the UK EU trade balance where the UK buys more from the EU than the EU does from us is not the winning card Brexiteers told us it was. Regarding the referendum it wasn't really a straight forward choice between Remain and Leave. The choice was remain in the EU or Leave the EU for the future UK you desire. Vote leave - for cheaper food / to support our farmers for cheaper imports / to stop cheap imports to hold the UK together / to break the UK up. and so on and now we have Leave for a low tax, regulation lite UK / nationalization and high tax UK The conclusion is that Leavers are a very mixed bag and many, probably most will not end up with the kind of Brexit they imagined they were voting for. The result that should be respected isn't the 52:48 for Brexit but a probable 75:25 against the situation the UK finds itself in post Brexit

The notion of a UK power grab, disguises the reality a bit. There is certainly power grabbing going on and being planned, but I doubt the underlying reasons are nationalistic. British nationalism is simply a tool and a way of achieving a new era of different power and control. For who? Ultimately no one is going to appreciate being exploited by opportunists and that is the achilles heel of those trying to do just that. The British empire was created by opportunistic, swashbuckling buccaneers - that instinctive spirit is now rising to the fore again and we are at risk of being the victims if the Uwch Saes mor leidr.

An excellent article/speech from Rhun, and a mixed bag of responses. Thanks for yours, Angharad, and I really hope you do not find yourself compelled to leave Wales. Wales's problem is that too many people like you do leave. And by the way, no, Patrick Minford is not a serious economist if one has any respect at all for the discipline. It's a source of continuing embarrassment that he has an academic post in Cardiff.

We know. My personal thoughts on the continued bickering about Brexit is that it is just a shame that someone or group, Plaid or anyone else, could not fill the melstrom of confusion that the English and their Llackies yet again caused and the lost fell into. Only by working from the streets up will things change and the only people doing that is YesCymru! So, everyone can go on arguing with and being distracted by the will of the English some of us have work to do! YesCymru, YesWales and YesIndependence!

Did Blair pay Rhun to write this? His references to his family merely demonstrate how the EU benefits the already-privileged. I like and admire Rhun ap Iorwerth but Plaid Cymru needs to change its current mindset and address the issues of English geriatric immigration, social cleansing from English cities to Welsh towns, unwanted housebuilding in Welsh-speaking areas and the plethora of other battles that need to be fought. If Plaid won't take up the mantle, it might be time to form a new nationalist party. And as for Brexit, don't expect the EU to support the cause of independence if the UK somehow remains a member.

Many of the problems facing Wales - modernisation of infrastructure, dealing with an unsustainable agricultural sector, the crisis in the rural economy, the decline of Welsh in its heartlands, funding health and social care, low productivity and investment - have deep roots. Hopefully at some stage –sooner rather than later, the debate will move on from sharing fears and fantasies about Brexit to tackling these problems

I remember realizing that the uk would leave the eu should a referendum occur about 10 years ago. I was debating this with a friend, and he was so sure it would never happen. Don't you remember the drip drip of poison from the likes of the euroffobic press over the years (mail, scum, express)? The 'banana directive', the foreign straight cucumber affair; the constant feed o xenoffobic ideas. Britain ( = England) is mentally still at war with a Nazi Germany. So Germany which is a central plank of the eu allows the 'scum-press' (little more than adult comics really) to equate a Nazi Germany with a 'nazi' eu and therefore carte blanche to hate all the racist, undemocratic eu foreigners. The question to ask is how did Britain manage to stay in the eu for as long as it did. I'm a European through and through, but how on earth do you persuade all the sun-reading people to stop hating everything foreign. Perhaps, that is where nation.cymru could play a role: welsh news from a welsh standpoint and with our interests in mind.