Plaid Cymru is becoming an anti-establishment party again

But does it take one anti estsblishment AM to seek to rewrite history. The movement of a minority party to the middle ground, on an anti estsblishment ticket is not achieved by party disunity, or any one exponent of the art of change management. It takes a body of like minded politicians within a party to grasp the components of successfully managing a sea change of mind set that some will feel uncomfortable about and may cause uncertainty of re- election. This is more about policies and programmes of action that speak to the leanings of the majority of voters. The world is changing and so its politics. There's a ground swell against pro large businesses, and large corporate bodies who dodge taxes and seek power play even seeking greater influence. There is ground for a more moderate and consensus politics that speaks to the frozen out, and disenfranchised. Politics needs a personality that speaks and acts in ways that are better understood. Not by the elite but those on low to moderate incomes and with debts. The great unwashed. The just about managing group who fear the future. There is much to think sbout. The necessary need to open up discussion is upon us. A spilt in the Plaid party is the very last thing we need.

Plaid Cymru need to decide if they’re left wing or right wing. If you’ve learnt nothing from the demise of the Lib Dems it’s thats you can’t be all things to all people.

An interesting thesis, Ifan, but I think Plaid Cymru have been more scared of alienating 'British-minded' voters than of threatening the legitimacy of the Assembly following the narrow margin of victory in the first referendum. The Assembly has been secure from abolition or rejection for some time now, and Plaid have made no move to present themselves as a radical pro-Wales party, while their record in local government in the Bro Gymraeg has shown them to be complicit in the imposition of Local Development Plans on the England-and-Wales model. I'll be watching to see if your forecast of the emergence of a more 'anti-establishment' Plaid comes true, and I hope you're right. If it doesn't happen soon, I'll be transferring my allegiance to the new party currently being promoted by Royston Jones, Gwylim ab Ioan and others (if it actually gets as far as presenting a manifesto and fielding candidates).

"If, as it looks to me, that separation somewhat subsides in Scotland then we will be left with a constitutional settlement that 20 years on, for all its stresses and strains from time to time, has kept the UK together." -Tony Blair. One thing thats struck me this week beyond the McEvoy situation was the continuity bill. Power grabs by Westminster are good for the pro-Wales cause. But the problem is Plaid believe devolution to be a beach head - and only a budding establishment party would see it as such. But we know Plaid Cymru absolutely lacks any concept of tactics to build their cause... because they don't even know what that cause is anymore. Imagine if you will two villages along a river. The village closer to the source decides they want to dam that river up - the village below becomes dependent on those who blocked that river for any source of water. Then people start getting upset because what right has anyone got to deprive them of that water and build that dam? There's mounting anger and some see that its going to be a problem. So they allow some water to pass through the dam to alleviate the issue - but the dam remains - still blocking the majority of that river. They allow more water through at varying degrees - sometimes more, sometimes less - but as long as those dependent on that water are not completely deprived then the anger at the dam then subsides - it becomes life giving and one more aspect of dependence. The argument from the dependent village then becomes "We need to maintain the flow of water through that dam" rather then "The dam shouldn't be there at all". If the dam had remained then those dependent villagers would have got upset and destroyed it - but instead they are offered a compromise by the dam builders which they accept. That external threat is now an internal one. If the damn builders block off the river again... So no. Plaid are not anti-establishment. I actually think both Leanne and Neil are good campaigners but lets be honest here: Welsh Nationalism has lost its way. Plaid Cymru has lost its way. Who is going to lead? One of those two? Rhun? Adam Price? Neil wants more "water down the riverbed" essentially and Westminster will be happy to oblige if he gets the support but they will never take down that "dam". Ever. By that I mean the economic struggles here in Wales can easily be temporarily remedied and when anger settles they will stop sprinkling money on deprived areas. There is no vision here. How does Plaid intend to increase a sustainable voter base beyond Welsh speaking areas?

Just don’t understand how you can suggest Plaid is becoming “antiestablishment”. This week has shown more clearly than ever the close links between the current Plaid leadership, the Welsh Government (Labour) and the lobbyists, Deryn Consulting. You have to really struggle to discern any significance differences between the economic policies of Plaid and Labour. And Plaid has all but given up talking about any aspiration to independence for our nation

And the “others” who call McEvoy’s style “bullying” turn out to be Deryn Consulting, the notorious lobbying firm — who were of course the subject of a powerful campaign by McEvoy designed to achieve a system of registration for lobbyists

Its only 20 years since the "Yes maybe " vote but thats just how red the clear red water has been. Tuition fees and continued sell off of council houses. Yes, so more soggy consensus (or gritty politics ) from whom? Efallai bydd angen 40% toriad pellach i S4C, i dileu Comisiwnydd Iaith, a mynnu symud pwerau Cymru i Lundain i sbarduno Pleidiau Cymru. Ymlaen at y miliwn (o fewnfudwyr o Loegr) ife?

BS. I wish. Those who call the style of @neiljmcevoy “bullying” turn out to be @DerynConsulting, the notorious lobbying firm — who were of course the subject of a powerful campaign by McEvoy designed to achieve a system of registration for lobbyists

The idea that Plaid Cymru is turning into an anti-establishment party is at least one that recognises that Plaid Cymru IS the establishment, or part of it. Therein lies the first issue. Many members of Plaid Cymru think that they are already an anti-establishment party, that the party is radical and revolutionary. They think that they are already revolutionary outriders in what they do. They don't realise that their role in relation to the political establishment is one of insider rather than outsider, such is the Stockholm Syndrome now pervading the party. Plaid Cymru is Labour with some extra Welsh speakers.

au contraire. Plaid Cymru is the establishment now since they tried to out shoulder pad and out suit the other political parties in Wales on their agendas rather than a separatist, Independence agenda whatever the perception or temperature of the electorate on this matter. The party will be losing members as we comment, over the Neil McEvoy situation. The photograph you choose is interesting since it shows Leanne Wood in red who said that the 'Rhondda' seat was do-able and that she was strongly considering standing and then leaves it to Branwen Cennard in the camouflage trousers to suffer the humiliating defeat. This strategy combined with Llanelli where more than one trwyn was put out of joint was criticised by former grandee Elfyn Llwyd. It would be great to see a strong, partisan, guerrilla fighting party fighting for the same things as Plaid Cymru but actually mean it this time.

Ni allai hynny ddod yn rhy fuan. Nid Toris Lludain sy'n dal Cymru'n ôl bellach, ond y Blaid Lafur Gymreig. This can't come too soon. It's not the Tories in London holding Wales back any more, but the Welsh Labour Party.

Those who know my political history will tell you that over the years, I have beaten Labour fabrication after Labour fabrication. For fabrication read "lie". Ombudsman complaint after Ombudsman complaint were dismissed. I even found myself being sued in High Court on two occasions and effectively won both cases. It doesn't get much more intimidating than having to risk your home for a matter of principle. I gambled twice and came out the other end.The third action in High Court, I initiated and that's the one you hear about. It didn't go brilliantly, but a little known fact is the financial hit to my opponent far outweighed the hit on me: he won't libel me again. All the time, Cardiff Plaid were gaining support. The general public wouldn't know how the family is affected, from obscene phone calls to my elderly mother to targeted and persistent criminal damage. The two burglaries were probably the most serious matters. I take all this as part of the job. It won't deter me. The malicious and false allegations continue, but in a much more sophisticated way. I therefore think that the Nation comment about forceful behaviour and me giving ammunition to people is out of order. The reality is I don't. Guilty till proven innocent really is a reality in 2018 Wales.

This really is a fanciful argument on your part Ifan. Plaid Cymru as an anti-establishment party?? That really has to be the best laugh out aloud line you have ever published on Nation. There may have been some truth in this line about having to focus on safeguarding and establishing the new Assembly in the early 2000's. But, PC have unfortunately become an integral part of the establishment within the Assembly for a good while by now because of their ideological affinities with the Labour Party. Their links with this shadowy lobbying firm, Deryn, also shows how establishment minded they are down in the Bay. And good luck to you in trying to persuade nationalists here in Gwynedd that Plaid are an anti-establishment party. The party that bent over backwards to please their Labour overlords in the Assembly by closing a clutch of rural schools, not giving a damn about community hurt caused to many of its natural supporters. The party that also cravenly accepted the 8,000 new homes recommended for Ynys Mon and Gwynedd by the English Planning Inspectorate, rather than standing up for local people and refusing to do Labour's dirty work for them. You can't just wish these uncomfortable truths away and say oh now we are going to be more anti-establishment from now on. The public are not complete mugs you know. It really feels to me that Plaid have now reached the end of the road. This farce with Neil McEvoy will be the straw that breaks the camel's back for many of its long suffering supporters. This new party can't arrive quickly enough. Welsh Democracy needs it.

@Gareth "Plaid Cymru need to decide if they’re left wing or right wing." Absolutely not. Learn from the SNP how effective a broad-church party can be that is focused pragmatically on the needs of communities, not on ill-fitting ideology. Most of our people would, I suspect, be quite comfortable accepting rail nationalisation AND robust policies to attract inward investment. Focus on communities and ditch the Left-Centre-Right hangups. For most of us, our common interest in a successful and fair Wales transcends tribal factionalism

J.E. Lloyd is right, the SNP got where they are today by consistently campaigning for independence and having nothing to do with the Labour Party. Plaid Cymru has still not learnt these lessons.Years ago Alex Salmond was thrown out of the SNP and made a come back and led them to great success, as a broad church that had support from left and right.

The comment from J E Lloyd is the sliver thread on old woven clothes that covers Wales. That PC may be considered the alta ego of politics in Wales and has yet to force itself into main steam psyche to be a credible governing politic. It must come out of the shadow of Labour speak and mentality, yet not forsaking democratic socialist ideology, since recent events, even with often discredited leadership is resonating with disillusioned voters seeking change. It would be unnerving to plough the same ideology though when juxtaposition with the concept of a free and independent Wales. The concept has no rigid polical dogma. It's all embracing, multi layered and transparent. It's flag if anything, is neutrality. Neither right, left or centre. The simple message is that Wales will be better off by managing its own affairs, ( laws, enterprise, infrastructure, environment and protection of its assets.) The point from JE Lloyd is invest in communities and show they matter. As a previous CEO of Community Development Trust, not for profit, it has a role. But the reality is that a free Wales needs different messages, a deliberate promotion of a concept that makes you more prosperous, give more freedoms, addresses issues of a more local nature, and affords a notion that your vote matters and can influence choices and programmes. No more top down, fit all policies, that are made for and tailored for the larger audience of the U.K. Nothing works better that a fully functioning democracy that is responsive to matters of conscience and self belief. It's those things sadly missing from our UK politics. Let's make the change, and take control within the parameters that people feel comfortable with, and speaks to all people in Wales, whatever the political affiliation. It's time to take the shutters off and promote Wales.

And my point is that it is virtually impossible to try and re-position yourself as an anti-establishment party if you have become part and parcel of the establishment in the Assembly, and considered to be so by large sections of the voting public!

A bit of light relief here, Ifan. Good for you. As I hope to show in my next post on Jac o' the North, Plaid Cymru is now so in bed with Labour, so much part of the Welsh political establishment, so integral to the corrosive influence of lobbyists and third sector, so divorced from the real world inhabited by Welsh people, that it is doomed. The Neil McEvoy saga was indeed Plaid's chance to break with the establishment, but no, it chose to side with his attackers among the lobbyists, and in the third sector, and of course, in 'Welsh' Labour. Plaid Cymru links up with Labour at so many levels because it views Labour as a 'progressive' party, like itself. (The same applies to the Greens.) While Labour secretly laughs at Plaid's complaisance. Making Plaid Cymru just a sad little party of sad little people desperately wanting to be accepted and respected by the colonialist system of which it craves to be part. But don't worry, Wrexhamian, the bugles are sounding, and the cavalry will soon crest the ridge.

I see sense in the re positioning arguement, to anti establishment. It seems overly to some to be, 'chocolate boy now loves raw meat'. It's not going to happen for obvious reasons of choice and comfort. To many of us who read politics it is more symbolic and aggressive to the solutions of life style changes that are stagnant or declining. The causes of which lie in the bowels of state management and jurisdiction. A dislike of totalitarian regimes but not wrestling with the means of production or outright dislike of capitalism, and globalisation. But I remain unsure the neat boxes of definition of renegade or partisan fits life in the real grit of living. But it does mean that there is wriggle room to alter course without major surgery. David v Goliath remains fit and well. The strength it takes to challenge convention and state rule is in itself self defeating. It is more comfortable in the slip stream. More assured if you are seen to be conciliatory and politically correct. A pillar of respect and good living. A champion of the concepts of promoting self, rather than dealing with the real issues of daily living. It does not bode well for minority parties who struggle to pitch their arguments that can mobilise their core voters as well as main stream. Particularly within current FPTP voting system. On balance, no it's not possible to fully re-position. Alter course certainly. Speak to core voters for sure. Pretend you are all things to all people, certainly not. Be what you were meant to be, a campaigning party to secure a better future through an independent Wales.

Plaid Cymru'n blaid wrth-sefydliadol - go brin! In Gwynedd where that load of **** rules, it goes from bad to worse. They can't collect the rubbish - they seem not to have heard of our extreme winds, and so the bins fly off dispensing yet more **** everywhere. They have no idea of what Cymraeg is: if the youth in the schools can re-spell English words into our orthograffy, good enough - it's actually beyond a joke now. And to cap it all, they can't manage the local bus services. Owing to the ruling party's incompetence in Gwynedd, many people have had a moderately good bus service cut by half or more: some have lost the bus service altogether. Plaid Cymru didn't manage to spot a massive fraud of bus passes going back to 2002. I don't suppose Cyngor Gwynedd has a working and effective scrutiny committee. The bus company involved have lost their licence hence the collapse in services. But PC knew about this last August, yet only got on the case a week before the company's licence expired. Couldn't piss their way out of a paper bag seems to be the most appropriate way of describing 'em.. But then again a party of landowners and capelwyr is not likely to have much in common with people who have to, or choose, to use buses. And the same set of establishment tossers is exceedingly unlikely to become anti-establishment.

[Dear Michael, I have edited the below message for reasons you will no doubt understand. Nation.Cymru isn’t interested in getting involved in legal disputes, and so anything that could be interpreted as being in any way defamatory is removed. This isn’t to be construed as bias towards any party - we simply do not have £150,000 to spend on a court case! – Best, Ed] [For the lay reader, this message is in reference to Neil McEvoy’s post above – Ed] Fact, he lost the libel case he started against me. He withdrew and paid my costs. I will donate a sum to a charity of his choice is he produces any evidence that it cost me more than him. I believe Donald Trump before Neil McEvoy and as Plaid are finding out his only interest is self- publicity. Those of us who know him are never surprised at his antics. I am also surprised that Nation Cymru allow him to post such rubbish. It's important in any democracy that free speech and ideas are allowed to flourish and I welcome the debates that take place here on a host of important topics but why on earth allow him the space to misinform. Regards, Coun Michael Michael

With respect to Councillor Michael and our libel case, I was insured and only had to pay part of his costs. Councillor Michael was not insured. The overs bill was £250k. I had to pay £120k.