Lords can amend the Brexit Bill - but not block it

On what basis of law does Lord Wigley assert that 'We cannot ignore the referendum vote either in Wales or the UK'? The referendum was a consultation process, not a delegation of legislative powers from Parliament to the electorate. The consultation was moreover flawed because of the misrepresentations of the proponents of Brexit and there is a clear case for Parliament to do its proper job of discussing the pros and cons of exiting the Union in the light of the facts that have emerged since the referendun and reaching its own decision. That is what parliamentary democracy entails, not creating an irreversible decision on the basis of a flawed consultation process. Immediately after the referendum Plaid Cymru let us down by announcing a policy to the same effect as Lord Wigley's assertion quoted above, which surely is a political assertion tainted by concern that Plaid will lose votes if it does not follow the majority referendum vote. Plaid Cymru would have earned more respect and eventual political advantage if it had stuck to principle rather than attempt to follow the herd.

The Liberals also made valiant efforts to stop it, chwarae teg to them.

I think the point he makes regarding not being able to ignore the referendum is a procedural one regarding the House of Lords vs Commons. The Lords can’t throw out the Bill because the democratically elected chamber has indicated it wants it to be passed, so the lords’ role is to amend/improve it.

Diolch Hywel Moseley. Why is his the only voice saying we don't have to accept the accepted Westminster view of all this? Well, here is another voice. Same point, different angle. Written Constitutions 1. All sensible countries (and sub-countries) have them. In the US there are 50 State ones and 1 Federal one. All basically the same pattern but with tweaks to suit the particular State. 2. I half live in North Carolina. The NC State Constitution is clear and easy to read - https://www.ncga.state.nc.us/legislation/constitution/ncconstitution.html (There, that wasn't too bad was it? Wales could pretty much copy it word for word with relatively few tweaks for it to fit Cymru) 3. Overwhelmingly, these well-oiled Constitutions have a BICAMERAL system. The whole idea is that one house, Representatives say, can block anything the (State or Federal) Senate does. Or the other way round. Check and balance. Avoids tyranny of one house. Starting to sound familiar? 4. Lord Wigley (normally a big fan but I have to speak my mind) is referring to some rule or other saying that the House of Lords can't block the Commons even though he'd like to. What rule? Don't give me "Salisbury Convention" perlease! That's not a rule. Wales depends for its protection on something called the "Sewell Convention". We know what happened to that. The Welsh Government briefed a otherwise decent English barrister who put up a colourless performance in the Supreme Court and got absolutely nowhere. Sewell Convention, any Convention = fish & chip paper when it comes to anything serious. It is not a rule of law at all. So Lord Wigley, the Lords could defy the Commons. It is in law a House of Parliament. Create a fuss - good! Do not go gently....! 5. So Wales is going to suffer because Westminster does not have a true bicameral system and one of Wales most doughty fighters is not going to challenge the system.. Westminster has failed for a century to make the House of Lords a democratically elected senate. Now we pay the price of a dreadful Westminster system. Underlying all this is the fundamental problem of whether Wales can or will put up a fight to assert itself and defend itself. What it Wales did decide to stand up and be counted? How might we do this? Do what North Carolina and 12 other American Colonies did. Call a Constitutional Convention. Write a Constitution for Wales Ratify by referendum. And if London does not like it - tough! No I am not advocating a Revolutionary War, we won't need one. All we need is a clear and resolute political stand by a majority of Welsh people.

Lord Wigley was a hero of mine for much of the 1990s when I was an active member of Plaid Cymru, so it genuinely pains me to have to disagree with him so completely on any subject. Nevertheless this piece seems to repeat many of the misconceptions that Remainers come out with again and again, and sadly they're no more convincing from someone of Lord Wigley's stature than they are from anyone else. [And by the way, I'm very glad that Dafydd Wigley is now a Lord; I was there at the National Committee meeting in Aberystwyth, not long after the 1997 general election, when Plaid Cymru had been invited to nominate (if memory serves) three members of the House of Lords to reflect the astonishing electoral success they had achieved under Dafydd Wigley's leadership - significantly higher than they achieve nowadays. A small clique of new members from the Valleys, including one Leanna Wood, made the case that in fact we shouldn't nominate any at all, and made their point using the debating technique of screaming and shouting to the point where no-one else could get a word in edgeways and the meeting collapsed in chaos. I left the party shortly afterwards. I'm glad that Leanna Wood lost that particular debate within the party, but she's been allowed to win far too many since then and the party's flatlining level of support reflects that.] During the referendum campaign the Remain side reiterated again and again and again, with all the resources of the British State and the BBC behind it, that we shouldn't vote for Brexit because we wouldn't know what the deal would be, but it was bound to be a disaster, and the economy would tank from the day after the vote, and, and... and we voted for Brexit anyway, just as convincingly in Wales as in England. Also, just as was the case in Scotland (although it took the SNP an awfully long time to grasp this - I think the penny has dropped now), the Brexit voters included a large proportion of those who are also pro-independence, for the simple reason that the arguments for one are pretty much the arguments for the other. [In fact, during the campaign I remember a very amusing interview on the radio with a Scottish Tory MP, where he was telling the interviewer how fervently he wished to campaign for Brexit, but didn't feel he could. When asked by the interviewer why not, he replied "because I can't think of a single argument for Brexit which isn't also an argument for Scottish independence."] If you really want to undermine democracy in this country and bring about a level of fury not seen since, well, probably Cromwell's time, just try ignoring the largest popular vote on any subject that we've ever had in our history because you think you know better than the man in the street.

Brexit is stress testing the British Constitution and finds it wanting

Thank goodness Dadydd you are a member of the House of Lords. At least we have a voice, and an important one on Brexit and all matters of Welsh interest. The temperature is going to rise as the in fighting in Govt, sends mixed and contradictiory messages on what is or not the best plan post Brexit. I see a pivotal role for the Lords, as a buffer to the excesses of right wing dogma that will eventually show itself. The fact that Labour has now dismissed a need for a second referendum on the final outcome, a decision I find undemocratic, and irritating, given that it was a referendum that asked simple yes no questions, that the electorate are now denied a further vote on any details of the deal. There is no executive power or HOC vote should be the final arbiter. If the HOL is unable to scrap the Bill, and is a scrutiny body, as the second chamber, then there is the arguement that it should distance itself from anything that totally undermines the economic competence, social coherence of the UK as a trading nation and its prosperity. If the structure that resembles a hard Brexit and diminishes our Welsh Assembly further, then our position will be worse then desperate, and untenable. If it's tending to soft landing then the HOL role will be vital. I have no confidence in the process of negotiations with the EU or the capacity of the UK to see beyond the innane, take back control of our borders and laws. This will become a trial of who holds the best hand, but certainly it's not Wales. Every good wishes, I suggest a few aspirins and plenty of water ( Welsh).