Anti-establishment politics is sweeping the world - so why not in Wales?

It did happen in Wales, with a big vote for Corbyn's Labour. Plaid did slightly better than the 1997 equivalent when there was a big vote for Blair.

Ummm....slight exaggeration...bs. We have different voices from Plaid AMs. Adam Price is hardly radical while he supports cockamany vanity projects. The national executive committee is full of sycophants which means bad policy decisions. Add to that a personal vendetta against Neil McEvoy who is a true populist leaves the party split and unappealing. Shame.

Maybe because Plaid are part of the establishment - coalition with Labour, then the 'compact' you cant be in opposition and government at the same time. Also, to claim that Plaid was the only third party not to take a hit this year is ridiculous. Yes Plaid gained a seat (by 104 votes) but they almost lost Arfon, their vote at a UK level was the lowest it's been for 20 years. 200 votes in the right/wrong place and Plaid would have been back to 1983 with two seats. There's also no logical target for them next time either.

This is a one eyed article. Plaid Cymru are in serious trouble and Leanne is leader, she is a genuine and talented person, there is a place for her in politics but she hasn't shown the leadership needed to slap down the weasels in her own party, Plaid Cymru are SO the establishment as well as Welsh Labour in Wales,Plaid need a purge and get back on track: No more deals with Labour; Be a proper opposition; Work with others in opposition; Campaign for independence; Stand up for Welsh people at home and abroad; draw attention to Wales rather than paying attention to others

Why do so few commentators use their full real names? Is it because people don't want to stand by their words in Wales' 'village politics'? Happy to debate anyone but would be nicer if i knew who i was debating

With Labour adopting soft nationalist (small n) policies Plaid is in danger of losing is unique selling point. I believe that Leanne is an asset, she does come over as genuine and warm with the people she meets and came off relatively well in the TV debates, with her sharp one line put downs of the more outrageous remarks by her opponents - and more importantly her radicalism is genuine, and it shows. I would argue that trying to fight Labour on its own turf is always going to be a loser for Plaid. Having said that tacking to the right is not the answer, that ground is already quite crowded with the likes of UKIP and the Tories. Plaid has to have a unique vision of a decentralised, humanised Wales working for all and not a centralised bureaucratic managerial state as under Labour. It needs grand vision, it needs collective leadership and above all a solid belief that the only way that we can achieve our potential is through independence. Independence is the only way that we will gain control of the tools to shape our destiny. Corbin's rise in popularity started with those mass rallies that galvanised supporters, bucking the trend of negative main stream media coverage of the election. The weak state of the media in Wales hinders us doing anything similar, its going to be a hard slog but it has to be doable. A small aside, Plaid needs to mend fences with Neil McEvoy, both sides have to learn to compromise and Neil has to become a functional part of the the Assembly group, splits just play into the hands of opponents. That means Neil has to learn to be more measured and diplomatic and less confrontational and the Plaid group more understanding of reasoned dissent.

My take on the title is that everyone is too busy moaning, bickering, whinging, fighting old political corners that don't apply anymore in a 21st century world let alone Wales. It is funny to watch and read whether, in the north were there be Tories, in the south were there be Labour, around abouts Plaid, with loads of distarcting odds and sods in the middle, all going round and around in an ever decreasing downward spiral. We have all been there, been a part of it and done it without exception. It is what we intend to learn from these sometimes petty online debates, if we can learn, that should be driving us forward. However, here we are debating like a group of Westminster wannabees rather than standing up and taking action on behalf of our people and nation! Prime example of the history and of what still goes on in Wales today from a political standpoint. North Tory, South Labour in between over the decades various Independence groups and other factions. Plaid Cymru becomes the voice of the Welsh people and ever since the Tories and Labour have joined together to gang up on them. Why? Because Plaid represented the start of free thought in Wales and became a threat to the union of which both Tory and Labour support. At a time when Plaid should have stayed strong and united their leader left and eventually took a peerage from the English queen, now don't get me wrong unionists on both the other two sides have done the same as part of their reward for loyal service. Loyal service to the crown of England certainly, not Wales surely. Plaid then not only gets a leader from the South, but that leader is also female!!! From then on, give or take your arguments, the North doesn't like Plaid that much and a lot of the old guard leave for these two main reasons. However, they'll always tell you otherwise. Look, the majority of you are, as I was, probably trapped in a political mentality that owes more to England than Wales. You have to change yourself before you try and change the world as many wise people have already pointed out. The only way I can see the best way to do this, at the moment, is through YesCymru. You may sit at home snug in yer cwtch thinking everything is alright or no one cares or/and that you'll stick with what you know, even if you have reservations and doubts these days. You are not alone just take a look, there are thousands of ordinary people mobilising to firstly, better their individual communities before turning toward thoughts of Independence. You, like I and many more who have, on occassions, had to wrench themselves from that decaying comfort zone of English enslavement to step into the reality of the situation in and concerning Wales. Wales isn't a quaint little funny speaking place on the edge of England for tourists to come and watch us die! We are what is left of the descendants and caretakers of the indigenous peoples of these lowlands, highlands and islands we should be better than what we are! Anyway, tis up to y'all whether you want free will and self determination or just to become a county of the English. If you want the latter carry on what every young person realises old people can only do, if you think you may be brave enoughto try the former join YesCymru, but start by reading the booklet 'Independence in your pocket" then ask questions.

Be the party of providing jobs for Wales and a Wales-focused economy not dependent upon the State. That would be radical.

a grass roots campaign against dumping nuclear waste and prisons in Wales would be a start

It would be nice if you took your rose tinted specs off RE: Wood & Plaid, but that's not going to happen. This is not a debate it's an article people are commenting on, I find it weird you asking for people's full names to be honest.

Plaid would have done well to borrow the methods deployed by Neil McEvoy in Cardiff West, and replicated them across the 'Labour heartlands'. Numerous times, Leanne, and others 'at the top', were asked to roll out the community activism across Wales. But, no luck. Po-faced professionals apparently known better than the voters they are meant to be begging each election. WHO in the leadership of Plaid is responsible for hampering the party in this way? Is it Leanne Wood herself, or as Adam Price suggestions, others, hell-bent on sleek professionalism as priority #1? Price, or someone, should do the decent thing, at publicly name and shame those applying the brakes. Friendships with colleagues aside, we are talking about the future of Plaid and therefore of Wales.

Labour is firmly entrenched in Wales because the opposition to them is incompetent at best and colluding at worst (and that's a criticism aimed at all the opposition parties here in Wales). It's that's simple. The staggering lack of objective thinking on display here contributes to this - Roger Scully's recent blogspot of Plaid Cymru's lack of progress on Elections in Wales highlights some of the problems. For God's sake, listen to people who haven't got a stake in the party and offer an objective view of the situation instead of living in a dreamworld. Leanne Wood's exposure wasn't down to her, by the way. Whoever would have been Plaid Cymru leader at the time would have had the same amount of exposure. The party's lack of electoral success, which you simply don't acknowledge here and through some unfathomable thinking have decided has been a success, demonstrates starkly that neither she nor the party actually has taken advantage of that coverage. The only conclusion is that whatever Plaid Cymru is doing (if it's doing anything at all) isn't working. The leadership is an essential part of the whole-party package - it is that, more than anything, that exhibits the party to the nation. And the nation isn't buying it. And how is that surprising? This, apparently radical, image you paint of the party ... are we talking about the same party that has constantly helped the "bland, grey-suit" Labour government of the past few years through helping to pass their budgets and forming compacts with them? The same party that of whom Leanne Wood herself said, if you want to implement *their* policies in Westminster, vote for us? Whatwhatwhat? Gimme a break. This blind, cultist support is horribly damaging: it's from the same vein as Corbyn's Labour, which let's not forget convincingly lost the last election by some way against an abysmal Tory campaign and arguably their least competent leader ever. What you, and a few commentators here don't get, is that popularity isn't the important thing here. Is Leanne Wood popular? Yes. She comes across as sincere, principled and warm. Is she someone they see as a potential First Minister? No - not at all. Our lack of media here in Wales is a problem, of that there's no doubt. But stop blaming it for Plaid Cymru or Leanne Wood's lack of success. You can only play the game in front of you and the party plays the hand it has (for better or worse) poorly. And that's despite the fact, as you acknowledge yourself, she actually is quite exposed on both the Welsh and even British level. I don't mean to appear rude in the above and apologize if I do. But this type of self-deceit is endemic within Plaid Cymru. Plaid Cymru doesn't need to be more radical. It needs to be competent.

Keep to the truth. Neil McEvoy has NOT been found guilty of bullying staff by an independent tribunal. HE was found guilty of a 'bullying' comment whilst helping a constituent at court who the Cardiff labour council was evicting. A trumped up charge by labour opponents. Plaid should have stood up for him but instead allowed Bethan Jenkins to pillory him and stir up a storm with labour people in the press and social media. Obvious unedifying spectacle targeted at her ex partner. This made Plaid look ridiculous. She should have been suspended for that. The Plaid 'in crowd' can break the rules but woe betide anyone else that even looks like breaking a rule. The 'jobs worth' lot will be straight in there threatening, even making false allegations about, for example, false accounts etc

Dear Steve, like many others you seem to have jumped the gun. I am not aware of any investigation into me, so what is it? I have only read about complaints which were in the media about 8 months ago. If you know more than me, please enlighten me how you have come across your information. Thanks.

Thanks Lyn Thomas for your clear-sighted and incisive contribution - and for dispersing some of the shouting and bluster round the rather divisive figure of Neil McEvoy. You make the point that Labour has to some extent stolen PC's clothes, in adopting 'small n nationalist policies'. From a narrow party point of view this is annoying, but if we're actually interested in policy and action in the real world it is rather to be welcomed. If PC is to demarcate itself from Labour it is surely, as Lyn puts it, by offering 'a unique vision of a decentralised, humanist Wales.' The emphasis must be on the local - local shops, local food production, small-scale housing development, where needed for local needs, by small-scale local builders. This might be seen as the antithesis of such schemes as the 'Circuit of Wales', inexplicably embraced by Adam Price!

The author, a Plaid councillor on Cyngor Gwynedd, seems to be labouring under the impression that all the party needs to do is "let Leanne be Leanne" and that allowing her radical message to come through unfilltered will regalvanise the members and convince the people of Wales to support Plaid. I'm afraid this is just wishful thinking. Unfortunately the harsh reality that must be faced is that Plaid are going nowhere fast under Leanne's leadership. Any attempt to re-brand it in any shape or form is merely postponing the inevitable. As another contributor said, there is no doubt that Leanne is popular on an individual level. She is a warm and engaging person who can relate to people wherever they are. But, there is a huge difference between being popular and being genuinely considered to be a leader and potential First Minister. Here in the heartlands, support for Leanne has quite simply petered out. A straw poll amongst ten of my friends, who would all consider themselves to be nationalists either with a big "N' or a small 'N'. revealed that 9 out of the 10 thought Leanne should now step down and let somebody new take over. Do you remenber the film "Dancing with wolves" where Kevin Costner goes native and asks the question: 'What are the people saying"? I would suggest that my straw poll above, as unscientific as it may be, shows exactly what the 'people are saying in this respect". To be fair to Leanne, her plummeting levels of support, are also down to Plaid's general uselessness as well, their unthinking support for Labour's policy of closing rural achools and to top it all, their support for 8,000 new houses in Ynys Mon and.Gwynedd. But, unfortunately, we live in an age where parties are defined more than anything else by their leaders and the public'' perceptions of their leadership qualities. The people of Wales, let alone 10 nationalist friends in Gwynedd, have long decided that LW is not a natural leader. The plaudits and the pleasantries will ring out for her at PC's conference on Saturday. But the truth is that the party will have to wait another excruciating six months of this slow motion car crash before the next window of opportunity emerges for a leadership challenge. 6 months where Brexit continues apace and Wales's national future looks increasingly under real threat.

One consequence of Mrs May’s surprise election in June is it may well be that sequence of Assembly election and Westminster election has been reversed. If so, the elections in Wales and Scotland are likely to receive heightened attention form the Labour and Conservatives in London as a trial run for what will for them the main event. There will be a squeeze on the non-Labour-non Conservative electoral pool. The challenge will be on for any Plaid Cymru or other Welsh based party leader. Arguably Jeremy Corbyn was politically shrewd in realising that not only might his leadership put off some traditional Labour voters but no-way was he ever going to win over Conservatives. Instead, he targeted a group largely apathetic when it came to voting and ignored by the Conservatives and betrayed by the Liberal Democrats – young people. When it comes to Welsh Assembly elections and referenda, there is a high level of voter apathy. Whoever could reach these people might gain significant previously untapped support

Steve, you have been diligent replying to comments from everyone else. Can you reply to mine please? How do you apparently know more than me about my disciplinary process? I know nothing officially, but gleam information from posts like yours. I was also able to tell a BBC journalist in my press Conference yesterday that he knew more than me.

Neil McEvoy. You've played well given your starting position as an ethnic minority man in Wales dislodged from Labour. But you have one obvious weakness from the unclear vantage point I have from a far having only you twice and once when you were unaware you were speaking to me. You don't change your tactics, and you make whom your fighting far too obvious and clear to win against foes more inclined to deception-based weapons. In a chess tournament. When a player is a vicious attacker and throws his bishops out quickly and pushes his non-protecting pawns up at once and implements an immediate attack, such a player usually progresses past the first couple rounds unimpeded by destroying players who have not learned defensive chess. But such players never win multi-staged tournaments Mr. McEvoy. I'm not insulting you, I'm trying to help you. You've reached the early-middle stage of tournament level play. Don't wildly throw your bishops and push your pawns up like a child anymore. Learn to circumnavigate with your knights, and fight quieter, longer term battles over decades if you must. Over 700 years since Llywelyn. This is not a short-term game, and the board of play gives them an advantage over us. Only by implementing strategies to effect 700 years from now will we be victorious.

The 6.40pm comment appears as my name and it is not me. Thanks and best wishes all.

I don't understand how comment 6:40pm on October 18 in Neil McEvoy's name was allowed to get past the moderators. It is clearly not him. It undermines the whole point of having moderators. Surely you can tell when Neil is commenting since you have his email address.

It may be worth banning IP addresses of people who clearly won't debate issues. It's not fair on the people running this site that they have to deal with such things.

Hi Steve, interesting discussion you've got going here. My opinion is too many in our great little country have become anglicised either by over use of the London based media or by dilution of incomers. I personally find Plaid Cymru a little too liberal, especially down south. What we need is to target young, future voters that Wales is a vibrant country with enough about it to stand alone. Look at the natural resources we have, the renewable energy, farming, tourist trade. We already have an infrastructure in place which younger nations didn't have before they became independent and have probably got a higher GDP than we have. I like Neil McEvoy, a spade is a spade kind of guy, but I find him wasted in this current Plaid set up. We need people like Mhairi Black to stand up and make Wales take notice.

Plaid are an establishment party, they have either been in Government in Wales, been the official oppoisition or have had a deal with the Welsh Government. Scotland is also voting for establishment partries still (the SNP have been in Government in Scotland since 2007, hardly anti-establishment) Brexit was an anti-establisment vote, for better or for worse.