Labour must speak out on Catalonia

I agree with your sentiments! Unfortunately however, Spain's consitution would have to be changed in order to allow this vote and for the result to be lawful! Unlike the UK which is a union of nations (although NI is not a nation) Spain is a union of historical regions! Under the Spanish constitution, the regions have a huge amount of autonomy! Indeed Catalonia's parliament has vastly more powers than the Welsh Assembly and that's despite the fact that Wales is a proper nation! However, Spain itself is an indivisible Kingdom! My advice to the Catalans therefore is to first make Spain a republic, change the constitution and then declare independence.

"If 50% plus one vote 'yes', we will declare independence without hesitation," said Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont 2017. Seeing as 52% of people voted for Brexit (slightly higher in Cymru)...going on track record, I can't see Labour supporting the voice of the Catalan people.

The more pressure the Spanish government tries to exert, the more the support for independence will grow. There is no divine right for Spain to be the state in the shape that it currently is and ultimately it will become ungovernable democratic ally if the strength of feeling for independence rises sufficiently. The support for Irish indepence was relatively weak initially and the hard handed response of the British government increased support for independence to the extent that it became inevitable. I hope this remains peaceful and I suspect that it probably will.

"...We would not stand for this in Wales or Scotland so why will we stand for it now? " I'm not sure you have that right. The Scots might kick up a fuss and Mad Maggie May might decline to do anything so rash, but in the case of dear old Wales I suspect that Carwyn and his greasy mob would tolerate a proverbial shafting as long as they held on to power of some sort. Check out the scheming going on right now to bind big chunks of Wales to major English conurbations - the City Regions , Severnside etc. One of the plotters is Ms Haywood a.k.a Mrs Hain wife of the upgraded Orange Baron of Aberdulais or Tonna who has written extensively about the potential of extending the scope of new "territories" like Mersey-Dee, Severnside, and no doubt give Birmingham/West Midlands freedom to annexe big chunks of Mid Wales. Any left over bits will probably get handed to the likes of Bare Grills to turn into leisure/recreation reserves for the better off. All this nonsense would render the Cynulliad's powers quite ambiguous in several respects and could in due course lead to Wales' complete integration into the new English provinces.

"Although Labour is a ‘Unionist’ Party who believes in strength by virtue of common endeavour," I see no common endeavour between Wales and the wealthy of London.....what alternate dimension do you live in?

As a life long supporter and member of the Labour Party, up to my last birthday, at the age of 60, I hear your cries, I feel your pain and I know how desperate you must feel that reality is finally hitting home. It doesn't matter how old or young anyone is, true enlightenment and the awareness that you have been fed to believe in a party that is so far moved away from it's original founding principals of the founding fathers that not even Kier Hardy could tell Labout and the Tories apart these days! Now, stick with me because, all I am trying to do is help you. Catalonia goes against the current Labout Party policy of unionism, national or international (which in its self is a dangerous corner to find themselves in). Therefore, they will not speak out, as a party, even against the illegal moves, by Spain, towards a people's democratic rights to self determination. Democratic rights of a people who have voted almost unanimousy, even using the democratic processes as laid down by the state that wishes to keep them oppressed to agree almost unanimously to cesseed from the grip of an oppressive state and be free again. Now, back in the mid 1930's as a run up to WWII, which was a kind of practice for international fascism and capitalism, funnily enough it was the then Spainish government that did then exactly what they are doing right now in what may be the murdering of not just its own people, but a people as distinctly different as we are to the English. There is no two ways about it they are heading down a very dangerous road indeed. Being a historian I appreciate the saying that some believe history can repeat itself and although you may not believe in that you have to admit there is a certain familiar rhythm to what is happening now and what happened back then, in the 1930's. Look, don't you think it a coincidence that the last of the generation that gave their young lives to fight international fascism the last time, are just about all gone? It only takes a generation to forget and here we are back to square one. Labour were stronger then, but also inaffective. What has helped the Tories in dragging these isles back to pre war and Victorian priciples/ ideaology is because the only party (Labour) that could have stopped them has already capitulated and almost became Tory themselves. Being from a Labour family I know as do so many, of the thousands of brave socialists and others that believed in freedom that travelled to Spain to fight fascism. However, sadly, today I hear of nor see any Labour political careerist speaking out to do or encourage the same; I do hear the odd voice in the wilderness of a lost party. So, already we are seeing conflicts with the current Labour party's policies, idealogy and its path. You say that “Labour is a ‘Unionist’ Party who believes in strength by virtue of common endeavour, we are also a party of democrats, internationalist and fighters for fundamental freedoms”. I say, I used to think the same way, but they are not well, not any more. Otherwise they would have spoken out before now. I believe you have the principles and kind heart that make you the person you are, by standing up and voicing your hope that the party your have, possibly, given a lot to would do more. The Labour Party will not and even if it does it is now too little too late and it would have been forced to. Labour isn't what you thought they were or are and you need to express your horror at the current situation in Spain and they are lacking in action. You've expressed your horror now do what I and many others have done, move into the present and join a 21st century movement tthat stands and fights for all. Look, there is no doubt that the vote is “right” it went through the exact democratic process as stipulated by the Spanish government, but what we see is that when that democratic right differs from what the Spanish want they dismiss the democratic process and in my eyes are now going against international laws that most countries are bound to. The Tories are doing the same here and Labour does nothing and rarely speaks out against them. The days when true Labour people and politicians would get in the front line to fight any evil are well over. Fracking?! One of many evils stalking this country and one attracting criticism from almost every quarter, every except Labour that is. You are already looking for answers re the “party machinery” and therein lies part of the problem to the many questions and doubts you are now experiencing. How can I vote let alone support Labour when they are not standing up for democracy? I have no idea why you involve Alex Salmond in this and as for David Cameron well, we know where his interests lay and he did what he was told to do and has no moved on leaving a heap of crap in his wake. “If you believe in Unionism, socialism or common endeavour you make the positive case for it, you do not silence opposition and close the ballot box”. It is obvious that they do not believe in what you wrote here above. Also, you must see that by being unionists Labour would do the same to Cymru if given the opportunity, there is no other outcome! There are a small number of Labour MPs that have spoken out and that has to tell you that things have changes, I can remember there would have been uproar and outrage from the party I was once a part and proud of, but that party died I believe with the likes of my Dad and his generation with the death of John Smith. We just may march for our freedom and already our democratic rights have been diluted before, during and since Brexit, giving the Tories and far right carte blanch to do what they are actually doing right now, grabbing powers from our Senedd in the intention to return them to Westminster. If I were you I'd look at the party, look at any British political party and you will find the same. They are all for themselves and not the people, and my friend that is why I finally woke up and joined YesCymru because, change will come from the streets up, just like in Catalonia. If you are still in any kind of doubt then we'll see where Labour loyalties, principles and ideology really and truly stands when Cymru finally wakes up and moves for it's own Indpendence. Don't forget Lord in waiting Jones has called Independence “ridiculous” on air. Not just Independence from the British, but also the ability of independent thought and not one of the flock. YesCymru offers just that, every group is independent and works for what they need locally, that way it helps us understand what is so desperately need nationally as a Celtic nation. I suggest you take a good look at what Labour has been doing from any perspective and you may be able to end your mental slavery to a party that knows how to rubber dick it's members or instances like Abervan where they did it to a people suffering great loss. I did and it is great being free of hypocracy.

One more thing folks! The Spanish like the British governments have 'adapted' the laws to suit themselves and therefore make anyone who disagrees with them out side of the law (as they have formed and manipulated it).

It wasn't obvious that Cataluña would get independence following a referendum. Now with the heavy handed intervention of the Spanish state, I'd say that it is looking much more likely: Pob Hwyl - Cataluña!!!

Thank God Catalans have conservatives and liberals and their nation is not defined by a singular economic identity in the way Wales so often reduces itself to one economic ideology against another economic ideology. Their diversity of political opinion is what Labour fears, the idea that the struggle for freedom is not confined to the Left, that the centre-right can also join the struggle for a nation's freedom proving socialism and 'economic equality' (or conformity as it so oft becomes) to be a cult separate from the national cause and struggle for independence.

While, I understand the arguments of those who say that the independence referendum is illegal under the Spanish constitution and amounts, according to some, to a coup d’etat attempt, this position is fraught with dangers. The EU would have been the obvious mediator. 20-30 years ago there was much talk about a “Europe of the Regions“, now the direction of travel seems to be towards a federation of accession states whose internal relations are a matter for them. The history of Britain and Ireland is arguably an object lesson on how not to address the desires of a people for self-determination. But the settlement reached in the 1920’s whereby George V remained King and the whole of Ireland could be still coloured imperial pink on British maps of the world, created a route for British disengagement ( at least from the 26 counties) and the creation of the Republic of Ireland in 1949. As regards the Labour Party, I like the parable of the leader of the Maltese Labour Party- Dom Mintoff. In 1955 he was in favour, not of independence from the UK, but of the integration of Malta into the UK with MPs sitting in Westminster. By the time he had finally resigned from office in 1984 the British military were gone, Malta was a republic and a non-aligned and vibrant state, generating attention out of all proportion to its size.