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Opinion

Kinnock’s attack on the Welsh independence campaign shows exactly why it’s needed

By NationCymru
Stephen Kinnock MP. Picture by Chris McAndrew (CC BY 3.0)

Ifan Morgan Jones

Stephen Kinnock, the MP for Aberavon, has penned an article for the Western Mail today addressing the growing calls for independence in Wales.

The article doesn’t seem to be online, so here is a screenshot if you're happy to squint your eyes at it:

Nationalism is a divisive and dangerous ideology. Now, more than ever, our United Kingdom needs to stay united. Here’s my piece in today’s Western Mail, setting out why we must make the case for progressive British patriotism, with passion and conviction. pic.twitter.com/5MwXXvs6qk

— Stephen Kinnock (@SKinnock) August 15, 2019

YesCymru will welcome articles such as Stephen Kinnock’s because they confirm that support for Welsh independence is growing.

By joining the conversation, MPs such as Kinnock accord the Welsh national movement credibility. He will know this, and will have considered the danger of not addressing the movement as greater than giving it the oxygen of publicity.

The next independence march, in Merthyr Tydfil on 7 September, might be hitting (quite literally) too close to home.

It’s worth noting however that while Stephen Kinnock’s article has been motivated by the rise of support for Welsh independence, it makes no attempt to really engage with any of the arguments put forward by YesCymru.

The first half of it is very much a colour-by-numbers, prefab article responding to any kind of call for autonomy from Westminster.

It could well have been copied and pasted from an article about Scottish independence, or indeed an article warning any of the 63 nations that have declared independence from Westminster since the 18th century.

In fact, the article makes this even starker by first of all attacking Scottish independence, before making the same arguments (again) about Welsh independence.

So let’s have a look at some of the arguments in the article and what they amount to.

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Status quo

The first is that Welsh nationalism is a “divisive and dangerous ideology”, which is “regressive and isolationist” in contrast to a British “progressive patriotism”.

So, what’s the difference between patriotism and nationalism?

As one of the foremost academics writing about nationalism, Michael Billig, notes in his study 'Banal Nationalism', the reality is that 'patriotism' is really just a nicer word for 'nationalism' that people turn to when they want to differentiate their own feelings for their nation-state from that of others.

Some will argue that patriotism means ‘loving your country’ while nationalism means ‘thinking your country is better than others’.

But that’s bunkum, really – they both mean the same thing, which is that you have an opinion on the geography/institutions/culture of your nation.

If you prefer the status quo of the United Kingdom to one where Scotland is an independent country, then you are a nationalist.

If you believe the UK is better run by Westminster than, say, the French Assembly, you are a nationalist.

Supporting the status quo of things as they are in Britain today, where Westminster is the sovereign parliament, makes you a British nationalist.

So what Kinnock is really arguing for in his article is British nationalism – i.e. the belief that Britain should be the sovereign nation, rather than Wales or Scotland. The use of the word ‘patriotism’ is just smoke and mirrors. So, if nationalism is inherently “divisive and dangerous” then British nationalism is too.

And it can be, of course, in the wrong hands. Any nationalism can be a tool for divisiveness and even xenophobia. We’ve seen that in Europe and the United States.

But nationalism is not inherently bad, any more than any change of government is bad. Unions = good, independent nations = bad, is far too simplistic.

If a nation-state that has been governed poorly or evilly leaves a larger union and is then governed well and for the greater good of all, that cannot be a bad thing.

In contrasting a "progressive" British nationalism and "regressive" Welsh nationalism, Kinnock is recycling the arguments of the 2014 Scottish independence referendum, but they hold even less water since 2016 and the age of Brexit.

No longer can British nationalism claim to be an uniquely “internationalist” ideology – especially when Plaid Cymru and the SNP wish to stay in Europe while the unionist parties are far less keen on doing so.

If Kinnock’s own EU-supporting British nationalism is “progressive” then he must allow that the SNP and Plaid Cymru’s desire to stay in the EU rather than go down the Brexit rabbit hole with Westminster is just as “progressive”.

But if Kinnock would rather Wales remain under Westminster control come what may – even if that means leaving the EU, which now seems inevitable – then his nationalism is just as "regressive" of that of the Brexit supporting government which he chides.

Picture by Ifan Morgan Jones / Llinos Dafydd. (CC BY 2.0)

Money

The second segment to Kinnock’s article is the boilerplate ‘Wales is too poor’ argument.

First, he argues that access to the UK’s market is worth too much to Wales’ economy to leave the UK.

This might be a good argument if Wales planned to become a hermit kingdom and rebuild Offa’s Dyke. As it stands, I have not heard anyone suggest that Wales should turn its back, economically or otherwise, on the rest of the UK.

The argument for or against Welsh independence is about whether Westminster should retain political control over Wales.

Wales will always be part of the British isles, geographically, linguistically, culturally and – indeed – economically. Unless we find some way of reversing the Atlantic ocean’s continental drift in an extremely localised way, that isn’t going to change.

Unlike some of the arguments for Brexit which suggest that trade deals with the USA or Japan will replace those at their front door, supports of Welsh independence seem rather most sensible in that regard.

If Wales does become independent, it's going to have to retain close economic ties with England.

The second economic argument is that there is a £15bn gap between what Wales raises in tax and spends.

There’s no point denying that there is a deficit. But if Wales can’t afford to be independent, neither can the UK as a whole. The UK has a deficit of £100 billion a year and is in debt to the tune of £1.83 trillion.

The United States has a deficit of £440 billion and a debt of £18.96 trillion.

And a lot of what is claimed to be ‘Wales’ deficit’ – around £14 billion – is actually Wales’ share of money spent on transport, infrastructure and the military across the UK.

Money spent on things like HS2 and even the Olympic Games in 2012 – mentioned in Kinnock’s article as the pinnacle of British "progressive" patriotism - is counted as money spent on Wales.

All the cash in the world is no good for Wales if it's not spent for the benefit of the people of that nation. What Kinnock’s argument does not address is the advantage that Wales would get from being able to run an economy and spend its money purely in Wales’ interests.

The ability to borrow to spend would allow us to invest in things like infrastructure which creates further wealth down the line which pays for the borrowing.

Vow

According to Kinnock’s own article, Westminster has not invested sufficiently in Wales in this way.

In fact, in its second half the article takes an altogether unexpected turn. It is almost as if it has been written by someone completely different (and considering that it is often political and communications advisors who often write these articles, rather then the MPs themselves, that may well be the case).

After attacking nationalists as “regressive” and “divisive”, he now concedes that they had a point all along.

“The rising tide of anti-Westminster sentiment in Wales and Scotland is understandable,” he says. “The UK Government has done far too little for Wales over the past 40 years.”

He then argues that the UK should devolve new powers, including the powers to raise tax, and reform the House of Lords and set up citizens’ assemblies to ensure that Wales has a much greater say at Westminster.

It’s worth noting that such suggestions in and of themselves, coming from a Labour MP, show the intrinsic worth of having an independence campaign.

Far from being “dangerous”, it admits that Welsh nationalists’ arguments have merit and that MPs do react to political pressure put on Westminster by groups such as YesCymru.

The problem is that the wishlist outlined in Kinnock's article has not happened in and will not happen. Reform of the House of Lords has been on the cards for 200 years. Rather than devolve new powers, Westminster seems intent on actually clawing them back.

Rather ironically, Kinnock ends by quoting Gordon Brown during the 2014 Scottish Independence Referendum campaign.

Brown was one of the authors of the ‘Vow’ – a promise to Scotland that things would change as long as they stayed in the union. The Vow was, of course, broken.

Kinnock and other Labour MPs are therefore either extremely naïve about how likely Westminster is to change, or are happy to promise a fairer settlement somewhere in the future that they will know will never come about in order to pacify Wales and Scotland.

If the latter is true, and if they’re willing to accept virtually anything Westminster throws at Wales in the name of retaining the union, are Welsh independence supporters really the “dangerous and divisive” and “regressive” nationalists?

A nationalism that keeps us in the hands of a “hard-right” government which will turn Britain into a “deregulated off-shore tax haven” – Kinnock’s words, not mine - would seem rather more dangerous to me.

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35 comments

Colin Jones

Mab ei dad.

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Richard Penderyn

His mother spoke Welsh yet only passed on English to him while he was privately educated in Denmark and elsewhere .... I wouldnt call that internationalist or multicultural ..... thats regressive and parochial

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Hywel Moseley

Excellent reply to Kinnock's article.

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Helen Glassford

As a Scot who's come round to the idea of independence, I'd agree that this is an excellent reply to Kinnock. It's Labour's betrayal of working people that's led to this position. As in Scotland, stand back and watch the people realise that these career politicians like Kinnock will do and say anything to cling to power. You've voted for them loyally for decades, just to be ruled by the Tories. Come onboard Wales!

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Cedwyn

He is the perfect embodiment of everything that's wrong with Welsh Labour.

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Richard Penderyn

Mick Antoniw Am for Pontypridd is a decent Labour one ... believes in more power and self rule

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Chris J Priest

Ardderchog wir!

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Kathleen Mullan

Now, more than ever Mr Kinnock, the UK is disunited. We in Scotland who are on the march for independence , know this. Our cousins in Ireland, who seek reunification, know this. And now, growing numbers in Wales know this. The final demise cannot come soon enough.

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Richard Penderyn

. This is the definition of hypocrisy The United Kingdom is a Nationalist state. He says "Nationalism is an dangerous ideology" ..... while supporting the Nationalist ideology of the UK state

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Richard Penderyn

He didn't post this online..... well .. his loss... Only a few thousands people will read his article in the Western Mail ..... smaller newspapers are almost finished

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Keith Parry

In 1979 Neil Kinnock fought tooth and nail against Welsh Home Rule and left Wales defenseless against eighteen years of Thatcher and Major. Many parts of Wales have never recovered from Kinnock Seniors actions. Kinockio was rewarded by the grateful English State and made an E.U. Commissioner and a Lord. His family becoming very well off in the process. Now we have Son of Kinockio telling us we must live in the English Tory state so he can carry on in his pointless well paid job in the House of Commons. WE DONT NEED THESE PARASITES FEEDING OFF THE PEOPLE OF WALES! FREE WALES!

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Norm

Dis you know people laugh at you behind your back Keith?

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Lilian Gammon

The Tories you mean!

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Richard Penderyn

Norm ... Keith tells the truth...Kinnock tried to smear the 79 devolution campaign as akin to nazism ...... now thats laughable

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Tudor Rees

The whole Westminster/Whitehall version of “Britishness” being thrust upon us with increasing vigour, with the approach of Oct 31st 2019 is phoney, and potentially damaging to those overvalue it. Until the 1707 the term “British” referred to the Brythonic areas of the British Isles, Wales, Cornwall and Cumbria and their culture. There had been some instances of Anglo Saxons or Anglo Normans claiming the title “British”, but it was not until the Acts of Union in1707 that this cultural appropriation was given legal status in English Law. Under the Westminster parliament, an English interpretation of “Britishness” was fostered in Wales Scotland and Ireland as well as England with the native languages and culture of the first three being virtually ignored. [This resulting ignorance probably accounts for the negative reaction seen when some English visitors and immigrants hear the Welsh language in everyday use in Wales.] This dismissive attitude to other languages and cultures was also extended to the developing British Empire with an assumption that English was the only language and culture of value in Britain, Europe and the World. This led many, if not most, in Wales to regard themselves as Welsh and not British. The unbalanced “British” view has created difficulties throughout the ages, and is a potent ingredient in the “Brexiteer” approach to the EU., that could result in a catastrophic outcome for Wales and Scotland with a “No Deal” departure in October. Given that a Federal solution is now a non-starter, it is understandable that Scotland, and increasingly Wales, view independence as the only way out of the mess for them. In the longer term we would all like to see England, freed of its previous overvalued “Britishness”, take its place as an influential and valuable member back in the EU, alongside Ireland, Wales and Scotland, with whom it could have deep and harmonious relations

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Keith Darlington

Mr Kinnock has all the makings of a careerist MP who would have slotted into Blair's Centrist New Labour perfectly. Other than representing a safe Labour Welsh constituency he has shown no interest in Wales whatsoever - apart from the time when his constituents at the Port Talbot steelworks were threatened with redundancy. As far as I know, he has had nothing ever to say about Welsh culture, or offered any vision for Wales. It is also interesting to note that he still opposes a second referendum on EU membership, despite the fiasco during the last three years and the implications that a no-deal Brexit will have on Wales. Yet, he falls over himself rubbishing Plaid and the SNP without any cohesive case against them. Could it be that he is fearful that Labour is about to lose a sackful of seats in their fiefdom and that his seat may be one of them?

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Sibrydionmawr

Nice to see a rational comment that's probably very near the mark. Sadly I think that Plaid is perhaps expecting to gain ground by default, which isn't good, as it means that Plaid are being as lazy as Labour, which isn't good for any of us.

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jr humphreys

( Plaid give off, to me anyway, a sort of Deaf Adder attitude. I'm convinced that Gwlad, or even Yes Cymru (and others) would not exist if Plaid were/had been truly "inclusive". As for the Kinnocks...................................)

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In reply to jr humphreys

Sibrydionmawr

Plaid's mistake is similar to that of Labour in that they appear to ignore the issues that concern most people on an everyday basis, such as the daily struggle to live, and in showing no real opposition to what the Tories have done. It's not so much that they support what some, (including myself at times) refer to as 'ishoos', but that they appear to be doing so whilst apparently ignoring, or remaining awfully silent when it comes to the daily assault on the lives of people for whom these issues are a luxury that they'd probably be supportive of, if they were even free to consider them. If you're hungry and facing homelessness, 'ishoos' aren't going to be the first things on your mind, even if, in better times, the issues under consideration would make your life better. It's a case of priorities, and it often appears that the mainstream parties of opposition are 'fiddling whilst Rome burns'. A very apt case in point, given the subject of this article. I don't know how many of you have read the very first article on the voice.wales site, but it's about the struggle for survival in Cymmer. Stephen Kinnock isn't very popular there, as he's done nothing to support their cause. Important to also consider that Plaid doesn't even get a mention. If Plaid was really into community politics, (which it's claimed to be for quite some years) then it would be at least attempting to help the people of Cymmer by championing their cause directly, as there seems to be a very active community group working very hard to keep the place going. It's not that places like Cymmer need political parties to do everything for them, as this is definitely not the case, but when they are as marginalised as Cymmer seems to be, then they could do with the moral support of parties like Plaid. At the very least Plaid should be pointing out Labour's utter failure in safeguarding so many communities like Cymmer. Instead we get things along the lines of 'Vote us in and we'll do something...' Now where have we heard something similar before?

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In reply to Sibrydionmawr

Jr Humphrys

More "McEvoyism" is what's required? Plaid could let the floodgates open in their favour, if only.............

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In reply to Sibrydionmawr

Huw Davies

I got fed up a while ago with the evident reluctance of Plaid to launch a sustained "barrage" of critical analysis on the failure of Labour in Cardiff and Tories in London to even begin to address the concerns of these marginalised communities. I don't belong to a party, never have done, but am always alert to the presence of any politicians active in the front line doing some heavy lifting with people who need help and an articulate voice. McEvoy does it in Cardiff West but elsewhere the silence is deafening. As for Kinnock, well he's good at keeping himself in well paid jobs, and that's about it.

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KC Gordon

...but what currency would an independent Wales, or Scotland, use?

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CapM

https://iea.org.uk/solving-the-scottish-currency-conundrum/ssion... Seems like there are three realistic options immediately after independence Euro Currency Union with Sterling with consent Currency Union with Sterling without consent All three have their pros and cons (as of course has using Sterling without being independent). Only the second option requires England's co-operation.

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Norm

rUK wont back a break away poverty region

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In reply to Norm

CapM

So you think England will rule out option two. That leaves options one and three. Which do you think it will be?

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In reply to CapM

Norm

Wales will have have to fully submit itself to the EU and pretend its an independent nation, not going to happen anyway and you know it deep down.

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Sibrydionmawr

What utter rubbish! Anyone who visits France, Germany or any other country in the EU would very quickly discover that they actually think quite a lot about their individual nations, and have no plans to subsume that. The EU wasn't so much founded on the notion that Europe had been war torn, as that was a simple fact, but to act as an institution for mediation. There are many claims that the EU is responsible for phenomenal percentages of national laws, but none of these claims stand up to scrutiny, and it remains that the vast majority of legislation passed by EU member states actually only affects that individual nation state. It's called subsidiarity. Equally ludicrous is the claim that the EU is undemocratic, but those making such claims conveniently forget that the House of Lords is even less democratic. The notion of the Labour Party being international socialists is also risible, especially when considering the behaviour of late over the Brexit issue, when you have 'socialists' actually siding with extreme right interests that will not only take us out of the world's largest trading bloc, but result in the impoverishment of many millions more people in the UK. Stephen Kinnock's biggest fear is more likely to be losing his parliamentary seat than anything principled, and he certainly isn't an internationalist socialist, not even close. As far as I know, the EU isn't putting out any propaganda, so it would be hard for Plaid Cymru to echo that, and anyway, I'm sure if you read anything that Plaid publishes, (which admittedly isn't much, or anything like enough, which of itself makes democracy all the more frustrating) you will gain a distinct impression that whilst the party is supportive of the EU, it would want to see huge changes in how the EU is run that would result in a Europe far more reflective of the needs and desires of the ordinary people of all member nations. So, I suggest first going and have a bit of a lie down, and then when you've calmed down a bit reflect a little on an idea that it's perhaps better not to swallow too much of what Victor Orban and Ein Gwlad are currently peddling - it's not good for your blood pressure, or your mental health, but more importantly, it's not good for the rest of us to have to deal with someone with such silly ideas.

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Norm

The working classes of east wales will decide the direction of travel in wales and that is the same direction as the midlands and northern England. The division is between western welsh speakers and the rest of us.

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Alwyn ap Huw

The fraternal link between the "working class" across Britain that existed from the 1920's-1980's has broken down irretrievably with the loss of common industries such as mining, steel production, manufacturing etc. Working class people who work in the tourist service industry in Snowdonia National Park don't have a fraternal bond with people who work in the tourist service industry in the Lake District National Park similar to that which use to be shared by Yorkshire and Welsh Miners. That bond has gone forever and will no longer decide any direction of travel. The language divide that use to exist in the 60's & 70's and was exploited by certain Labour politicians no longer exist either, with research showing that 80% of non Welsh speaking people living in Wales are supportive of the language. Sorry Norm, but your opinion has past its sell by date!

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G Jones

We would just not survive. The only thing we have to sell is water.

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Roger

My apologies for being so long. Taken from a study by. Patrick Jeremy, who studied at University of Wales, Newport From the excellent. walescan.com website Myth #1: Wales is too small to survive as an independent nation Myth Busted: Wales, a country of 3 million people, is not too small to survive as an independent country. It is a fact that there are over 100 other independent countries in the world that are smaller than Wales. In fact, of the top 10 wealthiest countries in terms of GDP per capita, 9 have a population of less than 5 million, and 7 of those have a smaller population than Wales. Of the countries of the European Union, some of the most prosperous are small countries: EU Member State GDP per head (in PP) Population Luxembourg 58,900 0.5m Netherlands 29,500 16.3m Austria 28,900 8.3m Denmark 28,600 5.4m Belgium 27,700 10.5m 1 Key Facts and Figures about Europe and the European Union (Office for Official Publications of the European Union) Economic prosperity is no longer secured through being a large country or empire nor by using military force to gain access to markets. There is no longer a link between the size of a country and its economic success. That a small country the size of Wales can prosper is evident. Those that argue otherwise are either unable to accept the evidence for this, or must believe there is something peculiar about the people of Wales that means they’re incapable of making a success of things. Myth #2: Wouldn’t Wales’s budget deficit be too big for it to cope? Myth Busted: The UK currently has the biggest budget deficit in the developed world. The argument that World. The argument that Wales gets more in public spending than it pays in taxes is often seen as evidence that Wales cannot pay its own way. When you consider the deficit of the UK as a whole, the argument does not stand up to scrutiny. There are undoubtedly economic challenges facing Wales. The current GVA of Wales is around 77% of the UK average. The challenge to those who oppose independence on the grounds that Wales cannot afford it is to explain why being part of the United Kingdom has led to this poor economic performance. It’s important to remember that Wales has historically been a creditor to the UK Treasury and more than paid its way over the years. Of course the wealth that Wales once generated, and will do so once again, did not remain in Wales for the benefit of its people. Myth #3: People don’t care about independence. It’s a distraction from real issues that matter to people. Myth Busted: We believe that independence for the people of Wales is central to a prosperous economy and society. The quality of local services, job security, affordable housing which are the issues that affect people’s lives can be dealt with far better by an accountable, elected Welsh Government. Myth #4: We’re stronger together! Why break-up Britain? Myth Busted: The ‘separatist’ label is often thrown around by opponents of Welsh independence. Do they think we’d somehow tear Wales apart at the border and move it somewhere else? The truth is we are the opposite of separatists. We want to be a full part of the international community and of institutions such as the European Union and the UN. An independent Wales would still be a neighbour to the other countries of the United Kingdom. There will always be strong, social, cultural and economic bonds between the people of the countries of the UK. The difference would be that we could be a partner to the other countries with our own voice being expressed. This would make for a stronger relationship. Myth #5: Most people in Wales feel Welsh and British and will never want independence. Myth Busted: In the modern world it is inevitable that people within Wales will have several identities. Identity is a personal thing and is separate from questions of democratic accountability. Personal identity does not necessitate support for a particular way of being governed. Myth #6: Independence is irrelevant in the modern globalised world? Myth Busted: The inter-dependence of countries is a fact of modern life. We want to play our part in the international community. As Winnie Ewing of the SNP put it: “Stop the World, we want to get on”. Globalisation not only makes an independent Wales relevant; it also makes it a more viable prospect. An independent Wales becoming a full member of global institutions such as the UN and playing a full part in the global economy would give Wales the opportunity to thrive. No longer does being a part of a large country or empire provide an economic advantage, small countries have access to the same global market. Myth #7: Wales would be kicked out of the European Union. Myth Busted: It has been officially confirmed that Wales, if independent, would remain within the European Union. Former Secretary General of the European Commission confirmed this, when discussing the case of Scotland: “There is no precedent and no provision for the expulsion of a member state, therefore Scottish independence would create two new member states out of one. They would have equal status with each other and with other member states. The remainder of the United Kingdom would not be in a more powerful position than Scotland…Anyone attacking the claim in respect of one country is attacking the claim in respect of the other. It is not possible to divide the cases.” Taken from The Independence Book, Scotland in Today’s World. Also, under the principles of the Vienna Convention on the Law of International Treaties, Wales would remain a part of the European Union, as would the other countries of the UK. The Convention states that an international agreement still applies to newly independent countries when a signatory state is broken-up. (That is the U.K. is the signatory.)

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Roger

I notice from this that Denmark is included and is smaller than Wales. Wasn't that where Mr Kinnocks wife was the Prime Minister.

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John Young

'The only thing we have to sell is water'. A very strange thing to say. At the moment our water is taken with no recompense to Wales whatsoever. Also more than half of the power generated in Wales is taken into the UK National Grid with, again, no recompense to Wales. The value of both the water and power taken from Wales is enormous. But Wales does not benefit one iota. If the only thing we have to sell is water, and currently we don't sell that because it's just taken, where does the roughly £85 billion of Welsh GDP come from G Jones ? Is none of that sales ? I think our farmers and all the people running the factories I see around the country producing things for sale would be very surprised at that.

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Roger

Mae Dadi yn nol. Dadi is back. He may be more concerned with losing his Parachuted easy to win seat at Aberafan for Westminster. Self interest is what guides this.

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KK

I can't really take anything anyone says from the Kinnock family seriously. To wit: Neil Kinnock: Thatcher and the Tories are evil. Result: Helps mould and fashion the Labour Party as New Labour. Neil Kinnock: Scrap the House of Lords. Result: Neil Kinnock receives the title of Lord Bedwellty. Neil Kinnock: The EEC is a gravy train. Result: Neil Kinnock becomes European Commissioner. Neil Kinnock : I support Cardiff City and have done for years. Reality: Doesn't have a clue about football. Who on earth asks whether a football has the same number of leather panels as a rugby ball? Neil Kinnock and the Kinnock family in general exemplify all that is wrong with politics and why nobody has any real interest in Westminster anymore. Additionally, Stephen Kinnock aside from being brought up with an inferiority complex should not be allowed to represent his constituency. He is not from the area and given his private education proffers the same ignorant values peddled by his 'enemies' in the Tory Party. What a joke. He'd probably brand a hot water tap as dangerous.

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Replying to jr humphreys Cancel

( Plaid give off, to me anyway, a sort of Deaf Adder attitude. I'm convinced that Gwlad, or even Yes Cymru (and others) would not exist if Plaid were/had been truly "inclusive". As for the Kinnocks...................................)

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