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Opinion

Just say no: Why the Welsh national movement should shun Pepe the Frog

By NationCymru

Dylan Llŷr

Welsh nationalism has long had to fight off false and lazy insinuations that it is linked to fascism.

Indeed, Professor Richard Wyn Jones has written a whole book on the history of this malicious tactic, and why the accusation is baseless.

But Welsh nationalists still need to be vigilant. Anything that can be twisted to suggest a whiff of extremism will be pounced on, so it’s important not to give opponents such opportunities.

It’s therefore distressing to note a handful of Welsh nationalist Twitter accounts and Facebook pages that are propagating imagery popularised by the self-described ‘alt-right’.

Some of these accounts feature Pepe, the cartoon frog who became the symbol of internet Trumpism, in their profile images.

Much of the content posted by these accounts is standard Welsh nationalist fare, and many sensible people will readily agree with a lot of it.

But amongst the ordinary complaints about Wales’ woeful infrastructure and neglect by Westminster, there is some worrying stuff.

Specifically, there’s more than a whiff of toxic masculinity. A very small number of these accounts are also outright racist.

Even some of the memes that are ostensibly quite benign are versions of running jokes from proto-fascist cyber-swamps like 4chan and certain corners of Reddit, so they’re a problem by association.

This might not be a problem if these memes were left to fester in the darkest corners of Twitter and Facebook, but I have noticed some prominent members of the national movement - who might just not know any better -  liking and sometimes even sharing this content.

Anti-establishment

In some instances, the use of memes with links to the far-right could be due to naivety by the account owners. They may simply not have realised that such a connection exists.

But we also know that the far-right has a record of creating groups and accounts that seem mild at first in order to attract followers, before gradually turning on the extremism.

With that in mind, the fact that most of the content is benign shouldn’t necessarily comfort us.

The ‘alt-right’ is anti-establishment, and so is Welsh nationalism, so one can imagine how the former could consider the latter a fertile recruiting ground.

In truth, of course, the two are anti-establishment in very different ways. But while the overlap is, hopefully, minimal, it would be a stretch to deny that it exists at all.

I haven’t named any specific accounts or groups since the whole point of this article is to recommend that we shun them and deny them a platform.

They aren’t numerous by any means, so this is written in the hope that we can nip things in the bud.

Avoiding racist accounts goes without saying. We also ought to avoid those that depict favoured ideologies as masculine and their opponents as effete.

Certainly, If you see a frog avatar that isn’t Kermit, that’s a very reliable sign that the account in question should be avoided like the plague. We can do without this stuff. We need to.


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49 comments

kim erswell

Could you give a link to - "a handful of Welsh nationalist Twitter accounts and Facebook pages" - so I can see the evidence and make my own conclusion?

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Royston Jones

A very vague and uninformative post that may have more to do with fears of a new nationalist party than with the appearance of a Welsh Alt-Right. I have never seen this amphibian used in a Welsh context so I too would welcome specifics.

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Dan Jones

Surely it would pay dividends to repurpose the fascist memes to a more benign use, thus negating the association and taking the ammunition off such fascists? These accusations seem like a baseless attack, and frankly, not including the names of the twitter handles or facebook pages seems like a cowardly attack that is done in such a way as to deliberately avoid any scrutiny or counter-criticism.

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DT

unless the author is willing to give details of these far right nationalist movements then this article could be accused of spreading fake news from the left leaning liberal political spectrum in order to discredit the nationalists without providing any substance.

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glasiad

Dylan is quite right to sound the alarm about these thought criminals invading our safe spaces. Simply having them banned is not enough - they would go underground where toxic masculinity and wrong-think could go on unabated. We need to round them up and have them re-educated. Those who remain resistant to re-programming should be put on pubic show trials, appropriately denounced, and severe punishment inflicted, preferably corporal. How else are we to keep people in line? It worked in the Soviet Union. There is no reason why it wouldn't work here too.

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kim erswell

Good idea! Still works in, North Korea... Just as an add on, we could have re-education officers dressed in black, masked - "alt left" - like Antifa as camp guards: they enjoy a bit of violence in pursuit of justice.

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Dafis

Glasiad - "Those who remain resistant to re-programming should be put on pubic show trials,......" Your enthusiasm for a bit of "correction" has slipped out of control here, mate ....."pubic show trials " ? What kind of pervert are you aiming to cater for ?

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Rob Bruce

"recommend that we shun them" and "should be avoided" somehow translates as "having them banned", does it? I agree that Dylan's coyness in naming names is unhelpful and patronising, but some of the responses here look a little, I don't know, over-defensive?

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Daniel Cavanagh

no one said anything at all like what you're suggesting, so stop being disingenuous what *was* said was that this particular association is bad for welsh independence. it will undoubtedly be used as a stick to beat independence movement, whether rightly or wrongly, and that's the important thing if you feel you'd like statement is incorrect then go ahead and fight for your right to spread this rubbish. otherwise, might i suggest you take your typically pathetic strawman argument and bugger off?

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Edeyrn

God people ... Glasiad is making a sarcastic joke!

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Daniel Cavanagh

oh of course. we can tell it's a joke cause it's really funny! :p more like glasiad is trying to make argument through a reductio ad absurdum strawman, and in doing so invalidates his argument i personally welcome glasiad's input (even though i always disagree) because it's good for all of us to be challenged, but if he's just going to make it up then i see no point to him commenting?

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henacynflin

Dylan is correct to say that memes such as these are easy quick methods to know the ideology of the person using them - phrases such as "toxic masculinity" serve exactly the same purpose

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Benjiman L. Angwin

Le Mythe de Sisyphe, Albert Camus (1942). And absurdism. That's all I have to say. Hwyl.

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kim erswell

Bit like a Kafka character fishing in a bathtub...Love, Camus a real "outsider"...

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JD

Never seen nor heard of this frog?!?

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Bobi the fire engine

The solution to this horrendous problem is obviously Men Camps where men can finally be detoxified of their masculinity and shown the error of their men ways. Here, an intense reprogramming curriculum can be carried out by enlightened non binary,intersexual, asexual persons who will fully train the miscreants in inclusiveness, tolerance and diversity. Those asking for tolerance towards their difference and diversity of opinion will be shot on the spot. Signed A self identifying non binary fire engine named Bobi - if replying, please refer to me using the correct gender-neutral pronouns

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Royston Jones

Bobi, I am in love with you!

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Bobi the fire engine

Oh ow, did you just commit a gender binary microaggression?

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In reply to Bobi the fire engine

Daniel Cavanagh

looks like someone can't handle the fact that some people's body chemistry makes them feel like the opposite gender and they wish not to be bullied for it! can someone says 'reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee'? if you need a safe space away from these scary, other-gender people then i can certainly find one for you. just let me know, brawd bobi

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Dylan Llyr (@dylanllyr)

If you haven't heard of the frog, well, honestly, good for you. Really, all you need to know is that he's used as a mascot by far-right Trumpists. If far-right Trumpism disgusts you, as it should, then you should wish to avoid any associations between it and Welsh nationalism. The article enables you to keep an eye out for the warning signs. But if far-right Trumpism doesn't, in fact, disgust you, then I have nothing more to say to you. There's nothing to be gained from naming the accounts. As I said, I think we shouldn't give them a platform, and there's no point getting bogged down in personal stuff. I've said what you should look out for, and that should be enough.

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CambroUiDunlainge

What part of the US did you live in?

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kim erswell

Sorry but, I don't think you can show the accounts, Dylan: I'm scepical you can produce them. I'm of black origin and I see no evidence that, Trump is far right either. Actually, Mexican votes and blacks saw him across the line.

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Ralph McSmell

These accounts are easily found and it's been terrifying to see Welsh people sharing this stuff so casually - especially since words like 'cec' and 'pepe' can be found in these accounts' biogs. It's also disappointing to see the response here, especially on a day where this is literally top of the global news agenda, with Trump sharing Britain First propaganda!

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kim erswell

Trump posted Tweets of a, Jayda Fransen and was highly unlikely ever to have heard of, Britain First or the people who advised him about them. Also. I tried to find, these eaisly found accounts but was unable to find any . Please direct me to them, Ralph.

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Daniel Cavanagh

i feel there is a point to be made that not sharing the accounts under discussion is unacceptable this is the prime twitter account that i can see sharing these memes: https://twitter.com/WelshIndyMemes. it previously said 'cec a pepe yw'r gorau' and now says 'I'm not alt-right or a nazi, I just like memes' in fairness to this particular account, it is very benign and simply seems to be an pro-independence account that uses popular, modern, internet memes to make the cause of indepence seem fun and cool. in addition, cec/kek and pepe are not exclusively alt-right memes (even if the latter has been heavily used by the alt-right) and so really there is no harm done here well done to the owner of this account for fighting the good cause and being receptive to the worries of the community having said all of that, there are enough hard-right, pro-independence accounts that *are* sharing some worrying things and if the owners of these accounts do genuinely support independence then maybe they should have a hard think about the best way to achieve their goal...

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Dylan Llyr (@dylanllyr)

Look, this shouldn't be tricky. The article is aimed at people who don't want Welsh nationalism to be associated with the 'alt-right', and explains how to identify it so they can react accordingly. There's a great big picture of the bloody frog right there in the article so that people know what too look for if this is new to them. You shouldn't need any more. Frankly, the defensive "but who do you mean?!" comments here sound disingenuous. If your true problem with the article is that you actually have a soft spot for the 'alt-right', just say so and end the charade. There's nothing more to say.

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Ralph McSmell

"well done to the owner of this account for fighting the good cause and being receptive to the worries of the community" The state of these comments. Well, if he says he's not a nazi then we're all fine to keep sharing racist memes from the alt-right's neckbeard jester wing. I'm sure it won't do any harm to the independence movement to have it infiltrated by shitposts and racist dogwhistles.

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Daniel Cavanagh

i don't want to distract from dylan's core point, because he's absolutely right. i am likewise disappointed by the many disingenuous, strawman arguments from those feeling a little bit too threatened on the other hand, i feel in this case there has been a genuine misunderstanding around this particular account, and not just because the poster says so. i know these memes and they are not exclusively alt-right memes. i wasn't aware kek was even used by the alt-right at all. it's just video gamer speak as far as i know (my friends and i are known to say this and we are left-wing). the owner could have doubled down and said fuck you all and just spewed as much alt-right rubbish as they could. but they didn't, and i can't see anything actually right-wing in there at all, let alone alt-right if there are other accounts out there that they are spewing alt-right propaganda, have at it. at least one of the friendly faces from here who just seems to be a trump/alt-right mouthpiece for some stupid reason. grow a brain and think for yourself perhaps... something constructive about *wales* and independence would be a good start having said all of that: we do desperately need independence to be fun and cool, because if the youth can grow up thinking that it is then they won't even need to question whether they support it later in life. we should actually support this meme account for that reason we also need to resist the tendrils of extremism and its poison, whilst at the same time respecting the diversity of opinions in the independence movement. if we fight each other, we'll fracture and never get anywhere

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Royston Jones

The truth is that if Welsh nationalism appealed across the political spectrum instead of being confined to a small number of prissy, self-righteous leftists it would have far more chance of success. Which is it to be - success or political correctness?

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Daniel Cavanagh

definitely we need broad support and to respect each other (so maybe insults like 'prissy, self-righteous leftists' don't help? :p) but we don't need extremism, and especially this hypocritical, destructive, divisive extremism imported from across the atlantic

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Royston Jones

That's how I see them, that's how I'll describe them. Are YOU saying I can't? Are YOU telling me what I can and can't say? And by the way, I've imported nothing from across the Atlantic. I am what I have always been - a Welsh nationalist who believes in freedom of expression.

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In reply to Royston Jones

Daniel Cavanagh

i'm not talking about YOU, i'm talking about others. i believe YOU are jac o' the north? if so, YOU can see i've complimented YOU below. if not, well, i don't know YOU from a bar of soap YOU can say whatever YOU want of course. i just thought it contradictory to say YOU want everyone to get along under the banner of independence but then label the other side (ie. reinforce the divisions). was but a mere suggestion, my good friend royston perhaps a pint's in order. i'll go get one now N.B. YOU

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In reply to Daniel Cavanagh

Royston Jones

No, no, no, I don't expect everyone to get along under the banner of independence, that's the very point I'm making. A varied and diverse independence movement will reach more people because it will have different appeals to different people in different areas with different concerns. This will lead to debate and even hostility within the independence movement, but as long as we agree on independence it doesn't matter. But if the independence debate is monopolised by "prissy, self-righteous leftists" then it will never appeal to anything other than a minority. For too many people Plaid Cymru is the face of Welsh independence, and most people would not want to live in an independent Wales run by Plaid Cymru. Offer them alternatives, make them realise that an independent Wales would be like any other country, with a broad sweep of political parties, and you're more like to get support for independence. The fact has to be faced that the Valleys - down to Swansea Bay - voted for Brexit, and voted heavily for Ukip in some recent elections. Yet unlike some other parts of the country we are dealing here with a Welsh-identifying population that is very conservative in social and other terms. What does Plaid have to offer these voters? Diversity within the independence movement is the key to success. Reject it because of some ludicrous and contrived connection with Trump and you do our people a disservice. And ensure that we never achieve independence. (And when you wrote that previous comment it was far too early to be thinking of a pint.) .

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In reply to Royston Jones

Daniel Cavanagh

right, i see... it had never occurred to me that get coming together meant not getting along. i guess it makes some sense in a right-wing sort of way? haha it's the middle of the night here for me so a perfectly good time to drink

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In reply to Daniel Cavanagh

Royston Jones

Not coming together, just agreeing on independence to broaden its appeal. Because if in the minds of Welsh people 'Independence = Plaid Cymru' then we're fucked.

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Dylan Llyr (@dylanllyr)

You're saying there's a binary choice, between something called 'self-righteous leftism' on one hand and embracing sexist and misogynistic imagery on the other. That is silly. Appealing to a broad political spectrum is fine and sensible. But that shouldn't include the 'alt-right', because the 'alt-right' is disgusting. I know you're just going to come back and deny that the 'alt-right' is racist and misogynistic, so to avoid going round in boring circles I'll just say beforehand that you're clearly and obviously wrong. Leave it there.

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kim erswell

I "deny that the ‘alt-right’ is racist and misogynistic..."

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Rob Bruce

"you’re clearly and obviously wrong"

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Daniel Cavanagh

i suppose you would say that since you seem to have drunk at the fountain of trump/alt-right ;) you can deny it all you want but the facts speaks for themselves - it is hyper-masculine and misogynistic (being associated with pick-up artistry and a specific strain of body building/improvement that are male-centric and promote selfish, misogynistic attitudes; and there's gamergate) - it is utterly and hypocritically intolerant (they feel it's their right to say and do whatever they want without any regard for anyone else, which in my book that just makes them selfish pricks. they go on about snowflakes, safespaces, etc, because most of us care about how we affect others and yet you've never seen a safer space than their own) - it despises an entire religion, and is incapable of a single rational thought around the matter, because a fraction of the religion are also intolerant, psychopathic extremists (just like the alt-right; maybe that's why they hate muslims so much) and most perhaps most importantly for some, it's an utterly non-welsh cause. so perhaps it's time for you to get your own brand of nationalism, like jac o' the north can manage to do and do well

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Dylan Llyr (@dylanllyr)

In fact, you can't possibly appeal to a broad and diverse spectrum unless you shun the 'alt-right'. So even by your own terms, you should be thanking me for the useful advice I gave in the article.

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Dafis

Alt right is just another label for people who have clustered a mix of age old prejudicies, predispositions, blinkers, etc etc. Within this fabled self promoted alt right there is a range of stances and some of those are pretty intolerant of other alt right before they look at anything else ! . Something like "my alt right is bigger ( or purer) than yours". Homophobia is a classic feature yet many "prophets/ advocates" of alt right are happy to "engage" with their fellow males. Sort that out. Perhaps we should get back to focusing on the real challenges like "exploitation" which appears to be just as endemic among those who regard themselves as "lefties" as it is among those regarded as "righties". Like I've said a million times before, if you adopt a 3D model the classic linear dichotomy of left and right disappears into the meaningless tosh it really is. Of course persuading card carrying Nazis and Statist Communists that they are cut from much the same cloth is an almost impossible and indeed pointless task. Perhaps we should round them all up .... but there again I would be branded a something else for doing that !

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CambroUiDunlainge

This is one of those things that at the present stage in Welsh nationalism I believe needs to be handled with care, so Dylan, I need you to hear what I'm saying then go have a very, very long think. Lets start with "Trumpism" and anything that might be "imported across the Atlantic". You see similarities between Brexit and Trump are in the fact that politics stopped listening to the people - that the voter wanted to hold those who no longer seem to represent them to account. But whats happened is those people have become entrenched in their views - they now also do not want to listen because they've been told to shut up and accept for to long. Problem here is that there's an opposite which equally does not listen - I'll give you a hint: "then I have nothing more to say to you.". You see that kind of attitude is why we are where we are - maintaining that attitude at this point only makes thing worse: dialogue required. Now I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying - but the way you are coming across with all this "why are people getting defensive" and the absolutism of "if you do not agree with me I have nothing to say to you". That is exactly what makes the people you are talking about so dangerous. The way you are confronting this is only adding to what created it in the first place. Fighting one extreme with another just does not work. There is no place for either extreme in Welsh nationalism. Because for Welsh nationalism to thrive and to succeed it needs to be inclusive - that means those who are unable to listen in the extreme have no place in it - and I'm talking both ends of the spectrum here. All that ever needed to be done was that people listen. Politicians stopped, people who felt abandoned stopped, people like yourself stopped. But most importantly... Donald Trump is the embodiment of "Not listening" and "I don't want to hear what you have to say if you don't agree with me" which I'm sure if you can read back over your comments here you will see in your own words. Not saying you share views, I'm saying you share a dismissive mindset of anything that disagrees with your own world view. Now... I'm not going to condemn you (you might feel I have by relating you to your enemy who rules a country to which you probably have not lived in) or ignore you, because you've come forward with a concern and all concerns should be addressed. What I am concerned about here is that I think you're using this to express your dislike over Trump as a whole and swing labels in order to condemn those with disagree with you. I hope you can meet me half way on this - this is the face of Welsh nationalism.

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Red Dragon Jim

I'm not fully convinced. I could meet you in the middle, in terms of both being Welsh nationalists, because you seem very reasonable! I might not be able to meet the hardest Brexiteer or Trumpist in the middle politically. The reason for this is not self-righteousness, many people voting for Brexit simply prefer not to share UK power with Brussels, but I have a concern about the racist element. It doesn't seem that Welsh nationalists using these graphics are expressing a Trump-type nationalism. It is to do with youth culture. Now I sound old.

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Dylan Llyr (@dylanllyr)

Look, the article had a simple purpose. It was simply to describe the 'alt-right' aesthetic, so that people who would rather not have Welsh nationalism associated with it don't inadvertently share or follow these accounts. That's it. I really had zero interest in having a debate about whether the 'alt-right' is, in fact, all bad. Because it is, and that's that. Sometimes there simply isn't a middle ground to be found, and the very act of pretending that there is serves only to give false legitimacy to wrong and harmful bullshit. Sometimes one side is right and the other is wrong, and this is one of them. I explicitly said in the piece that some of the people who post this stuff might not fully appreciate the imagery's connotations. Maybe they just thought the damned frog was cool in an edgy, contrarian sort of way. I can honestly see how that can happen; if they read the piece, I hope it convinces them to stop. If they insist on carrying on regardless even after learning of the associations, however, then their motives ought to be questioned. I've seen a few people suggest that we could re-claim the imagery and rid it of the nasty implications, but that is utterly unrealistic. Besides, why on earth would we want to? It risks tarnishing Welsh nationalism with the stench of the far-right, all for a shit cartoon frog. It's such a ridiculous hill to want to die on. Letting it go should be the easiest thing in the world.

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CambroUiDunlainge

Extremism is bad. The "Far Right" kind as well as the "Far Left" kind in terminologies that you can understand. What you've done here is post an opinion and expected Welsh people to accept it without question nor sources - which goes against who we are as a people and more important the foundation of the Welsh nationalist movement. You also stupidly have tried stifle anyone questioning what you have said essentially tell us just to accept it. I do not accept people telling me what to think nor do, I am Welsh. If I have questions and you are too weak to stand up for your opinions and provide adequate sources you have no business being here. "the ‘alt-right’ is, in fact, all bad. Because it is, and that’s that. Sometimes there simply isn’t a middle ground to be found, " Extremism is bad. Anyone who sticks to their views to an extent that they cannot accept being questioned and stifle discussion or debate is to me an extremist. So thats why I said... go away have a think. Because you are right: extreme right has no place in Welsh nationalism, but from what you've shown here neither the fuck do you.

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In reply to CambroUiDunlainge

Dylan Llyr (@dylanllyr)

If you agree that the extreme right has no place in Welsh nationalism, why the fuck are you arguing? Just leave it there.

Reply

In reply to Dylan Llyr (@dylanllyr)

Daniel Cavanagh

i think it's that cambro sees the same attitude here as the one that caused brexit and trump, ie. an outright dismissal of those with opposite views; a refusal to engage with these people. people's feelings are what's important. you might know they are wrong (which is why you're being dismissive, and fair enough), but they *think* they are right and when you dismiss them as if you are always right and they mean nothing you drive them in the opposite direction. for all their bravado, most of the alt-right are precious little things on the inside and they are just looking for acceptance and a community to call their own if you've watched michael sheen's recent video you would've seen this was a big theme of his, and he's bang on how do we make the dragon roar? by engaging with *everyone* who feels disenfranchised, right or wrong, left or right, and showing them that they already have a community to call their own, a community called cymru

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glasiad

So, the conversation continues ... Perhaps some of the confusion is that we have different ideas about what the alt-right frog movement is all about. Simply dismissing it as " disgusting" doesn't really tell us much at all. So here is I link to a short talk (12 minutes) about the alt-right by Brendan O'Neill, editor of Spiked magazine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-VwHGWL1HU He describes it as a rebellion against political correctness that in a peculiar way turns it into the very thing their are rebelling against. Or something like that. Certainly food for thought.

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Rob

Over-intellectualising it. Alt-right is a simply deliberate re-branding by people who know that calling themselves what they are, i.e. hipster-Nazis, would be a PR disaster.

Reply

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i feel there is a point to be made that not sharing the accounts under discussion is unacceptable this is the prime twitter account that i can see sharing these memes: https://twitter.com/WelshIndyMemes. it previously said 'cec a pepe yw...

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