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Opinion

Is it time for Plaid Cymru to prepare for power in 2026 - and will Senedd Reform prove to be Labour's undoing?

By Mark Mansfield
Plaid Cymru Leader Rhun ap Iorwerth - Photo Matthew Horwood

Martin Shipton

For as long as I’ve been writing about Plaid Cymru, the party has gone through periods when it has convinced itself that a spectacular victory will be delivered at the next election.

Part of this stems from the rhetorical skills of some of its leading politicians.

Adam Price, at his oratorical best, is able to whip up an audience already committed to the independence cause into a state that approaches a frenzy. He can convince waverers that Welsh “freedom” is just around the corner. For those who don’t know, he developed the ability to do this as a teenage lay preacher for the Plymouth Brethren in his home county of Carmarthenshire.

I can testify to the fact that it’s not all a big act. Adam Price genuinely believes that his predictions about the party’s imminent success are accurate.

I remember having a phone chat with him in 2016, when he was standing for the then National Assembly for the first time. He was determined to impress upon me that the outcome of the election would result in his predecessor as Plaid leader, Leanne Wood, being elected as First Minister. His emphatically enunciated parting words to me were: “Leanne WILL be the First Minister, you know!” I wasn’t convinced at the time and, as things turned out, I was right not to be.

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Straight talker

Plaid has a new leader now in Rhun ap Iorwerth. He’s more of a straight talker than an orator, and he’s usually characterised as a pragmatist and a moderate. But that hasn’t stopped him from also making grand claims about the potential for Plaid to do very well at the next election in 2026.

In his party conference speech, he almost used the well-worn Lib Dem line “Go home and prepare for government”.

The strange thing is that, on this occasion, he may not be deluding himself or others.

Welsh politics is a lot more fluid than it was. In 2026 the likelihood is that Labour, in power in both governments, will be unpopular.

The introduction of a new electoral system, where people will vote for party “closed lists” rather than individuals, and where all the seats will be allocated on a proportional basis, will create a new dynamic.

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Every vote will count

Unlike with first-past-the-post elections, voters will no longer have to engage in tactical voting to ensure a party they don’t like doesn’t get elected. They can rest assured that every vote will count, and that by putting their cross against the party they really want to support, their vote will not be wasted.

This will provide Plaid Cymru with a huge opportunity to capitalise on Labour’s likely unpopularity.

In past elections, Labour candidates in marginal seats have invariably appealed to supporters of other progressive parties, including Plaid, to lend them their vote “just on this occasion” to stop the Tories taking the seat.

The situation will, however, be complicated by the challenge of Reform UK, an insurgent and populist right-wing party built on the personality and perceived charisma of Nigel Farage, as well as messages sent to those considered potential supporters on Facebook.

Plaid could easily find itself in competition with Reform for the same disaffected voters.

Llanelli

In the first National Assembly election in 1999, Plaid picked up seats regarded as solid Labour like Islwyn, Llanelli and Rhondda. In July’s general election, all three seats - now expanded because of the reduction in the number of Welsh MPs from 40 to 32 - were won by Labour, but with Reform in second place. In Llanelli, a seat won at devolved level twice by Plaid Cymru, the Reform candidate was only around 1,500 votes behind Labour’s long-serving Labour MP Dame Nia Griffith.

It seems likely that in quite a few of the 16 new super-constituencies in which the 2026 Senedd election will be fought, many voters will have supported both Plaid and Reform in the past, and will weigh up which deserves their vote the next time.

Plaid Cymru, as John Osmond’s newly published book on the Co-operation Agreement between Labour and Plaid that lasted two and a half years, is good at devising policy. Its challenge is to come up with eye-catching ideas that voters believe it’s worth investing their support in.

Reform has policies too, but mostly they are designed to appeal to people’s feelings of negativity towards distinct sections of the community like migrants and benefit claimants - never bankers or investors who engage in tax avoidance schemes.

Identity

In the specifically Welsh context, they will latch on to issues like the 20mph default speed limit, having gauged that public opposition is strong. So while Plaid Cymru will offer the opportunity to vote for nation-building policies, Reform will seek to appeal to voters for whom the idea of Welshness is incidental to their identity.

There’s every likelihood that Reform will win a seat in each of the 16 super-constituencies in 2026. Even so, and despite the fact that many people in Wales have already demonstrated that they are prepared to vote for what is, in essence, an English nationalist party, the possibility remains that Labour could cede its position as the leading party in Wales to Plaid Cymru.

'Split'

John Osmond, who unlike his former boss Adam Price, for whom he worked as a special adviser, is not prone to making rash predictions, told me during a conversation we had about his book that he remains relatively optimistic: “The right wing in UK politics, and Welsh politics too, is strong - but it’s split. That’s the great thing - it’s split between the Tories and Reform. That’s why Labour did so well in the general election that’s just gone, especially in Wales. They didn’t win all the seats in Wales because of their own vote, which had declined. They won because the right split.

“I think that will happen in 2026. The polling at the moment shows that roughly Labour and Plaid are level pegging in the mid-20s, in terms of percentages, and Reform and the Tories are level pegging on 15% or 16% each. That points to the fact that no party is going to get near a majority. So some kind of cross-party collaboration is going to be required. And the only option, as far as I can see, is going to be collaboration between Labour and Plaid.

“The question then is, on what terms? And then it depends on the numbers. So it’s whether Labour is the lead party or Plaid Cymru is the lead party. If Labour turns out to be ahead, Plaid Cymru will be closer to Labour than it was in 2021, soi therefore you’re up for a possibility of a coalition, or a reiteration of the Co-operation Agreement.

"If the two parties are very close, you could look at an Irish situation, where we have the First Minister for one half of the term and Labour for the other half. That might be difficult for Labour to swallow, by the way.

“On the other hand, if Plaid Cymru is ahead of the Labour Party, I think Labour will be very reluctant to go into a coalition with a Plaid First Minister. So Plaid may be forced into leading a minority government, which would be very difficult indeed. Maybe they would need to contemplate some kind of Co-Operation Agreement with the Labour Party, but whether Labour would be willing is another matter.”

When Labour backed the closed list electoral system for the Senedd, it thought it would help entrench it in power for many more years. Ironically, it could prove their undoing.

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90 comments

Annibendod

Not really. If Plaid does come out on top, Labour will do some kind of deal. What's the alternative? Open the door to the Tories and Reform? It would mark a transitional moment in Welsh politics. A century of political domination by the Labour Party in Wales at an end. In answer to your final sentences, why not inform yourself? Rhun ap Iorwerth has been busy setting out Plaid Cymru's stall. Plenty to read up on there. The party's constitutional policy remains Democratic Statehood for Wales. The party has published its policy in this regard. There are a range of options that will need to be considered in the event of a mandate which includes a confederal union with the other British nations.

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Lyn E

There is a lot to like in many Plaid Cymru policies. Welsh Labour seems tired and directionless, and inhibited by its ties to the Westminster government. The danger from Reform is real, and Plaid has the opportunity to present a positive alternative. But voters will be put off by the prospect of a Plaid-led government wasting its energy pursuing the mirage of independence (as the SNP has done in Scotland) rather than improving lives in Wales.

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Annibendod

Mirage? What, statehood like other nations enjoy? No mirage my friend. Normality.

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In reply to Annibendod

Lyn E

The prospects for independence in the foreseeable future are remote. Under what circumstances is Westminster going to vote for a confederal union? Many people wanting a change from Labour will not vote for a constitutional dead end.

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In reply to Lyn E

Annibendod

Constitutional dead end? Purely your opinion. How does change happen? "Slowly at first, then all of a sudden."

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In reply to Annibendod

Lyn E

Perhaps. But Plaid Cymru will not be able to force its constitutional preferences on England, which rather than a confederal union might prefer just to lease some reservoirs and military bases, divide up debts and assets, then treat Wales as a wholly foreign country with no guarantees on movement of people, goods, services or capital, Perhaps. Constitutional dreaming will not solve the problems faced by the people of Wales today.

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In reply to Lyn E

CapM

For someone who says that they're a neutral international pragmatist whose primary concerns are financial systems, poverty, justice ,the environment climate change etc you sure spend a lot of time and energy opposing the idea of independence for Cymru. No reply necessary, you've already said it's entirely due to the concern you have for the people of Cymru. I'll jump off now before your merry go round speeds up.

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In reply to Lyn E

Annibendod

Mate, The English State has enforced its constitutional preference on Wales since 1282. Think about what you're saying. And if England chose what you describe, then that's just fine and dandy with me. There's a much bigger Union 20 odd miles to the east of the English Channel we can do business with. I'm sure England would come to its senses eventually. "Constitutional dreaming" my backside.

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In reply to Annibendod

Lyn E

Ah yes, the world beyond. Just like the Leave campaign promised trade deals all over the globe once we left the EU. Like it or not, geology ties Wales to England, which is by far our largest trading partner and will remain so. Who else is going to buy Welsh water? Nor do I believe the people of Wales will ever vote for hard barriers dividing us from our friends and families. UDI is a dangerous fantasy.

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Llew Gruffudd.

My point is that whoever comes out on top still face the present constitutional arrangements. You and Plaid can herald whatever policies you wish, without the means to carry them out, it's a wish list. I have read Plaid's policies and there is nothing in them to change that.

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Annibendod

Vote for Plaid and provide the mandate. That is the means we need.

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In reply to Annibendod

Lyn E

Plaid could not claim a mandate for independence unless it is elected on a manifesto that states that as its core aim. Plaid’s leaders are not publicly saying that.

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In reply to Lyn E

Annibendod

That is incorrect. The manifesto clearly states the path forwards. So vote for Plaid and provide that mandate.

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In reply to Annibendod

Lyn E

Plaid have not yet issued their 2026 mandate. The summary published here of Rhun ap Iorweth’s speech to Plaid’s consisted mainly of largely sensible proposals for governing Wales. Plus one unclear sentence at the end mentioning independence but not as an immediate goal. That would not give a mandate.

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In reply to Lyn E

Annibendod

Sorry, the 2024 manifesto makes it very clear what Plaid would do. You're not correct on that front. True, the 2026 manifesto is not yet out. Do you reckon the policy with reall be that different Lyn? I think you're just being contrary.

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In reply to Annibendod

Lyn E

Independence has certainly not taken a central place in articles or reports of speeches by Plaid leaders over recent weeks. Most don’t mention it at all. Of course, I don’t expect Plaid to renounce the goal of independence. But the party needs to honest with the people of Wales about whether a Plaid-led government would focus on improving lives in Wales or instead follow the SNP down a blind alley while our people suffer.

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In reply to Lyn E

Annibendod

Purely your assertion. Plaid have already been very clear on what they propose to do.

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In reply to Annibendod

Lyn E

Plaid Cymru’s 2024 manifesto has a short paragraph stating that independence would be best. But pressing for that in the near future is not mentioned under its Key Pledges.

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In reply to Lyn E

CapM

Is this the short paragraph you refer to. Plaid Cymru will prepare a Green Paper on the path to independence, and create a National Commission. This Commission will work to improve the health of our democracy, research the full range of options for our political and economic future, and engage citizens in Wales in an ongoing discussion about these options. If so you've somehow missed the page and a half of text on the subject that follows immediately afterwards. (see pages 43, 44) https://assets.nationbuilder.com/plaid2016/pages/10962/attachments/original/1718214059/Plaid_Cymru_Maniffesto_2024_ENGLISH.pdf?1718214059 I'm assuming that your mistake is due to a lack of diligence on your part rather than any attempt to deliberately mislead.

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In reply to CapM

Lyn E

That’s not in the manifesto published on the Plaid Cymru website. https://www.partyof.wales/addewidion_pledges

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In reply to CapM

Lyn E

OK. I didn’t have time earlier to drill down on the website to find the paragraphs you quote. But that makes my point. Plaid Cymru could not claim to have a mandate to pursue independence with any priority unless it is up front about it, so that voters know what to expect. The SNP does this. At the very front of its manifesto, it states (in large bold capitals) ‘Vote SNP for Scotland to become an independent country’. The Plaid manifesto does not even mention independence in its Key Pledges. Are you serious about this, or not?

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In reply to Lyn E

CapM

The point is that you were not competent. The solution more drilling and before commenting perhaps. The attempted distraction in the rest of your comment doesn't save your blushes.

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In reply to CapM

Lyn E

You really don’t get it, do you? This isn’t a game of point-scoring. Yes, I was very busy yesterday, so didn’t have time to drill down. But so are most of the electorate. The percentage that reads through and compares long manifestos is minuscule. Do you really think you can con the people of Wales into giving you a mandate for pursuing independence by burying your intentions in the small print while advertising other priorities? Have some respect for your fellow citizens that you aspire to govern. If you intend to pursue independence in government, then be open and honest about it. This isn’t a trivial policy matter. Be bold, put it in large letters at the top of your manifesto and talk loudly about it to voters. Stop playing coy. Or do you fear that if you did that then you could lose half your potential vote?

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In reply to Lyn E

CapM

"Yes, I was very busy yesterday, so didn’t have time to drill down." Yet you had time to write comments. It's important to get the drilling to commenting ratio right. The electorate is not ignorant or stupid and know that Plaid Cymru's vision is for an independent Cymru. Even if there are some as clueless as you assume every British nationalist (aka Unionist) political party, media outlet and supporter such as yourself would inform them and remind them continuously of their misconception. As they all do already

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In reply to CapM

Lyn E

You’re obviously more interested in your ego than in politics. If it makes you feel any better then yes I should have taken more time. But the essential question remains. If Plaid Cymru intends to push through its independence goal as a priority, then why is it not listed in your key pledges?

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CapM

It should be obvious that any changes to the "present constitutional arrangements" are in the hands of the electorate rather than Plaid Cymru. If the electorate choose to vote for a party or for parties that support independence then that provides the "means" to attempt separating from England. Plaid's policies are what it considers are achievable and required to improve the lives of the people of Cymru and should not to be confused with a strategy describing a pathway to independence. You can call it a "wish list" but every party's manifesto could be also described as such.

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In reply to CapM

Llew Gruffudd.

Of course the electorate will decide the constitutional direction. It is however surely the role of a party with aspirations to that direction, to lead, to persuade by strength of argument. I am not seeing Plaid taking that role. With regard to policies, without the means to implement the policies, they are meaningless, attractive maybe, but meaningless. I don't see Plaid providing the means. Manifestos of all parties are indeed a wish list, which is why we rarely see them implemented.

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In reply to Llew Gruffudd.

CapM

If you think Plaid Cymru haven't done enough to convince the electorate that independence is a better option than remaining part of the UK you may have a point. Perhaps you could offer suggestions based on what has convinced you that Cymru should be independent. However you are also saying that Plaid Cymru having policies is "meaningless". Accepting that constitutional change can come about by bullet or ballot box and assuming that you are ruling out the bullet. Please explain why producing policies that the electorate can scrutinise and question is "meaningless" rather than being an essential part of the ballot box option.

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In reply to CapM

Llew Gruffudd.

Its not my suggestions that are important, although I am happy to debate that it's Plaid's leadership I am questioning, given they purport to be the party of Independence. With regard to the other point on policy, my point is that they are meaningless unless Plaid tells us how they intend to resource them. I see little evidence of this.

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In reply to Llew Gruffudd.

CapM

The reasons why you have personally been convinced to support independence are important.as potentially others might also be convinced by those same reasons. You said previously - " Manifestos of all parties are indeed a wish list, which is why we rarely see them implemented." So if you think that why single out Plaid's. It appears from your comments that you think any policies Plaid has whether costed or not, are "meaningless" until Cymru is independent. It follows that logically until then only the policies of Unionist parties are meaningful. Which is a bizarre position for someone who wants an independent Cymru to take.

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In reply to CapM

Llew Gruffudd.

I am new to Nation Cymru, but I have now written three opinion pieces so my reasons for supporting Independence should be quite clear. They are not laid out in a neat resume for your convenience , but hopefully, together with future pieces, all will become clear. The last piece was on Welsh Labour having no credible plan for Wales future, so I am not singling Plaid out. It is obvious that the concentration of my comments on Plaid are because I am responding to an article about them. My gripe is that, as an advocate of Independence. Plaid are not showing the leadership of a party of change.

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In reply to Llew Gruffudd.

CapM

"My gripe is that, as an advocate of Independence. Plaid are not showing the leadership of a party of change." I haven't questioned that opinion. Our discussion here stems from your comment (or gripe) that Plaid Cymru's policies are a "wish list" which you followed up by describing them as "meaningless". Showing leadership for change without policies is just asking for an extra intense and unnecessary , kicking from Unionists parties and media and the majority in Cymru that we need to convince. .

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Dr John Ball

If Plaid Cymru does yet another deal with Labour it will forever be seen as the lapdog. the enemy in Wales is Labour and Plaid Cymru still can't see that!

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J Jones

Claiming success is all about electoral victory sums up the delusional self serving politicians we have today, it was the same with Drakeford claiming Welsh Labour were the most successful party internationally, despite the fact that the governance it provided was an abject failure.

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Frank

Too many people in Cymru have been conditioned and converted over generations to the English way of thinking. They have lost all confidence and faith in themselves and are used to having their hand held by a country that wants Cymru to remain the underdog. If Plaid ever gained power and independence it would take several more generations for these people to let go of this midguiding hand they are so used to. Completely brainwashed!!!

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Rob Pountney

"Unlike with first-past-the-post elections, voters will no longer have to engage in tactical voting to ensure a party they don’t like doesn’t get elected. They can rest assured that every vote will count, and that by putting their cross against the party they really want to support, their vote will not be wasted."... Unless of course they want to support the Greens or LibDems, in which case, under this proposed dog's breakfast of an 'electoral system' they are mostly completely stuffed...

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Annibendod

Plaid have stated that they will pursue STV. It will take 60% of the Senedd to put that through though.

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Lyn E

Plaid collaborated with Labour to impose closed lists.

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In reply to Lyn E

CapM

It was either closed lists or keep the current system. Surely a pragmatist would understand what was the better/less bad option.

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In reply to CapM

Lyn E

As many analysts have observed, there were alternative ways of improving proportionality within an enlarged Senedd without closed lists.

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In reply to Lyn E

CapM

You don't get a prize for stating the obvious. Award yourself a prize if you accept the reality. Change could only happen with a super majority that only Labour and Plaid together could achieve. Labour insisted on PR with closed lists. If Plaid had not agreed then Labour would have vetoed the change to the PR system and the increase in Senedd members. This can only be difficult to understand if you don't want to understand.

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In reply to CapM

Lyn E

As I said, 'Plaid collaborated with Labour to impose closed lists'. Learn to take responsibility.

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In reply to Lyn E

Annibendod

Your framing. Your bias.

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In reply to Annibendod

Lyn E

Yes, I’m biased in favour of democratic accountability.

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In reply to Lyn E

CapM

"Learn to take responsibility." Responsible for the introduction of a PR system Responsible for an increase in Senedd members Responsible for preventing the Laboutpartyinwales vetoing the above by collaborating with them on their insistence for closed lists. Waving a placard doesn't require compromise or pragmatism. The same can't be said for real world politics.

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In reply to CapM

Lyn E

If Plaid Cymru wants to take credit for good things delivered though its deals with Welsh Labour, then it also has to share blame for the bad. That’s real world politics.

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In reply to Lyn E

CapM

If it only took a placard to get us what we want I imagine that we'd both be happy.

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In reply to CapM

Lyn E

The issue is not the necessity for compromise but the refusal to take responsibility for its consequences.

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In reply to Lyn E

CapM

As I said earlier - Plaid Cymru - “Learn to take responsibility.” [you said] Responsible for the introduction of a PR system Responsible for an increase in Senedd members Responsible for preventing the Laboutpartyinwales vetoing the above by collaborating with them on their insistence for closed lists.[I said] You really do need to do sufficient drilling when you read something even if it's just beyond the first sentence

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In reply to CapM

Lyn E

It’s no good trying to evade responsibility for the whole package. You can’t pick and choose. Ask the LibDems about the price they paid for agreeing to increased student fees as part of the coalition deal in 2010. Will Plaid Cymru propose changing from closed lists in its 2026 manifesto?

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Llyn

The problem for Plaid is given the financial straight jacket any Welsh Gov has, when it comes to their manifesto, they can't just promise more money for everything (something Plaid politicians love to do) but will have to come up with eye-catching reforms. Another great article from Martin Shipton, but Reform is a "far-right" party. It may be difficult for everyone to accept Welsh voters supporting such a party, but it's clearly a fact.

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Mandi A

Amply demonstrated in the GE on Ynys Mon where Plaid unseated a popular Mrs Crosbie by a small majority only due to the split between Tory and Reform. The Plaid vote is static, the others are volatile and subject to external factors, one of which is a shifting demographic meaning that more people are able to "work from home", make their second home their main address and avoid punitive council tax. A Plaid-Reform coalition driven by the hunger for power on both sides would be a gift for the journalists.

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Annibendod

Not static everywhere. In Llanelli the Cons vote almost entirely shifted to Reform. Labour's vote dropped and the difference split between Plaid, Greens and Libs. Between the three, there were enough votes to unseat Nia Griffiths. We have seen Plaid pick up seats in the Valleys in the past. Talk to Leanne Wood about the Labour vote there. I have family who have voted Labour, Plaid and UKIP living there. The vote is not as static as we are led to believe. Labour's vote is gradually being hollowed out.

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In reply to Annibendod

Mandi A

A few well-placed soup kitchens and Mr F will be Chancellor

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In reply to Mandi A

Annibendod

This is a concern. The Con vote is bigger in England and he could well wing a majority out of it.

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CapM

"A Plaid-Reform coalition driven by the hunger for power on both sides would be a gift for the journalists."  On what planet are you imagining such a gift being bestowed?

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In reply to CapM

hdavies15

Now that might form the basis for a good comedy series on S4C with English version on BBC.

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Mab Meirion

The upper classes, lawyers and clergy went to Oxford and the entrepreneurs took to the maritime/plantation services business, the biggest game in town, and everyone played it... And the Quaker community got chased out...where did all the money and brains go...West...

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Daf

Something not being given enough recognition is how many young followers Reform have. I’m no Reform supporter, but it is clear that on social media, especially Tik Tok, where Reform are very active, a huge number of supporters are not the ‘gammon’ beloved by traditional news commentators - but the under 20s. If you don’t believe me, look for yourselves. 16 and 17 year olds will be able to vote in the next Senedd elections. A lot of them support Reform. There may be a Youthquake coming which is not the kind that Labour or Plaid hope for.

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Jack

Reform has many young voters - it matches the position of many populist parties in Europe.

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Daf

True. A lot of politicians, and political journalists, make the assumption that a younger cohort of voters will automatically swing left. That’s not what is happening.

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Mandi A

Hope Not Hate has done some very useful work on Youth Fascism across Europe including the UK. Read Joe Mulhall's Drums in the Distance

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Daf

I think part of the problem is calling this ‘Youth Facism’, tbh. Hope not Hate still think they are fighting the BNP. Small groups like that do exist, and do have supporters - but the mainstream of Reform is a different phenomenon. I think a lot of in Wales (and elsewhere) has its roots in Brexit. Which the majority (a small majority) of people voted for.

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Daf

I can see Reform picking up a lot of Welsh Tory voters. Welsh Cons just don’t look at all robust atm, and UK wide they are in disarray after a general election thrashing, and will be for some time to come. I think electoral ward changes, plus a haemorrhage of disappointed Tory voters to Reform - plus a large proportion of first time voters and under 20s voting Reform - could see Reform doing far better than many anticipate. And a proportional representation system will help usher them in. Personally I think that’s a very grim prospect, but it shouldn’t surprise anyone.

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Annibendod

I think the Conservative vote in Wales is Reform's high tide mark. Labour appear to be heamorraging most of its votes to Plaid, Libs and Greens.

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hdavies15

Labour maims itself by tinkering with the voting system. They will be shot in the foot by their own actions. Pity it can't be more terminal.

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Adrian

I could discuss policy issues at length but it doesn't need to be that complicated. If, like me, you're not prepared lend support to anyone stupid or deluded enough to believe that a man can become a woman then, in Wales, there really is only Reform.

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Jack

PC wont win. PC is stuck in its Welsh speaking heartland and will never move out of it as the only distinct PC policies are Welsh language everything or the hallowed land of independence - ask Scottish voters about that idea! With the new multi member electorates also note that Reform will increase its numbers. Consider the 2024 General Election results - Labour 37%, PC 15%, LD 6.5%, Conservative 18%, Reform 17%, Green 5%. So, the Tories in the worst place for years got 18% and Reform - just starting - 17%. So, a minimum 35% and increasing. Labour may drop a point or few due to Westminster but how on earth PC votes will increase 20% when they have no appealing policies for potential new voters. PC in percentage were in fact 4th place in percentage votes. That's a long way from winning the election as the dominant party!

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Mab Meirion

New voters; if you are referring to the black clad fashion among the 'young men' in their end of days garb... What is being taught in Dr Williams to create such a generation of clones...?

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Mab Meirion

It was good to see the Bob Owen book fair up and running again post Covid on Ynys Mon on Saturday, A good chat brings out the old stories that must be told, if not written down... It is obvious on here that much has been forgotten and an awful lot not learnt and every few decades we need more names/sacrifices on marble to king and country to tell us who they say we are...

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Daf

I agree. I don’t think many are aware of the percentage share of votes in the general election (which is a much better predictor of success in a proportional representation system, which will be what the next Senedd election is).

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Annibendod

The Senedd rarely follows UK elections. People demonstrably switch votes.

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In reply to Annibendod

Daf

I don’t think the Senedd vote will necessarily follow the General Election vote. But more people in Wales voted Reform than voted for Plaid (in the GE). And that was with Plaid winning its highest ever vote share in a GE. Reform were only just behind Welsh Cons. I don’t think this pattern will be replicated in a Senedd election - I think Reform, particularly in a PR system, with the Senedd’s electoral reforms, could do much better.

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In reply to Daf

Annibendod

They poll significantly lower for a Senedd election. Plaid significantly higher.

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In reply to Annibendod

Daf

I'm not aware of any polls canvassing widely enough to include those who are under voting age now, but will be able to vote in 2025. I'd be interested to see them if you can point me towards them. It's also still the case, unfortunately, that even polling lower than the GE, while Plaid poll higher - proportional representation will still see Reform doing better than in the GE.

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Dai Ponty

I now believe Plaid in 2026 will make a breakthrough the Tories have been kicked out Wales in the General Election and now we can see Labour treats Wales no different to the Tories by denying us money which they gave to Scotland and Northern Ireland for H S 2 and both parties saying its an English and Welsh railway H S 2 do they think we are stupid YOU CAN FOOL SOME OF THE PEOPLE SOME OF THE TIME BUT NOT ALL OF THE PEOPLE ALL OF THE TIME not forgeting taking the money from pensioners for heating allowence this is not a socialist party Starmers Labour and not forgeting we are a conquered people

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Chris Jones

I was not 'shocked' that many 'working class' Cymru voted for BREXIT (I admit guiltily that my pencil did hover angrily over the voting slip) and I'm not surprised that (some of) those same people (some good buddies) are now saying (whispering?) to me 'that Farage fellow talks alot of sense!'. The thing is; people who are builders, tradesmen, farmers, installers, drivers (aka working class) and so on have had a huge boost in business and earning from the disappearance of similar imported 'foreign' workers. They don't want them back. The constant complaint these days of the middle and upper classes (yes, UK is still class ridden/riddled) is that they can't find anyone to do 'jobs' and if they do, it is hugely more expensive than it used to be. Same complaint is made by business employers who want BREXIT 'reversed' so they can cut labour costs. In areas of Y Fro, Plaid Cymru is still reasonably strong politically (mainly due to their personalities rather than specific policies) but anyone can see that areas such as Llanelli, Abertawe or even the Amman Valley will be thinking about Reform and not the Red Tories as a second choice. It was a fiendishly clever move by Farage etal to call themselves 'reform' because that chimes emotionally with what people want from politics, including myself. Plaid Cymru, on the other hand are still and will forever, irritatingly, be identified as being the party of 'Welsh speakers'. 'Labour' no longer represent the labouring classes and they should change their name which is misrepresenting their constituency. Maybe it's time for pitchforks.

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Annibendod

"Plaid Cymru, on the other hand are still and will forever, irritatingly, be identified as being the party of ‘Welsh speakers’. " Only if we keep reinforcing this myth. I'd listen to what Leanne Wood has to say on that front personally.

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Chris Jones

Well, yes of course. Listening to Leanne is always worthwhile - pity she doesn't seem to have much of a 'platform' any more.

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In reply to Chris Jones

Annibendod

Hopefully she'll be willing to be a candidate again.

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In reply to Chris Jones

Daf

The problem with Leanne Wood is that she seemed to follow the 'Nicola Sturgeon' path. She has nailed her flag to the mast of extremist transgender ideology, and that really doesn't play well with the general voting public. As we see in Scotland.

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John Ellis

I've 'up-ticked' your post because on one level, of course, you're absolutely right, and your citation of Leanne Wood is apt enough. But even so I think that there is at least some actual substance to what Chris Jones has said. In the 1970s I lived for come years in and around Newport, first actually in the town on the east side of the Usk estuary. Locals there (even the numerous descendants of south Staffordshire folk induced in the early 20th century to move there, because their employer had set up a new operation in Newport) definitely saw themselves as Welsh. But, in however an undefined and unanalyzed way, they didn't see themselves as 'quite the same sort of Welsh' as those who lived much further west, and that sense of difference was exemplified by the prevalence of the Welsh language further west and its near-absence where they'd grown up. It never got as far as specific definition, as in the north/south descriptives of 'gogs' and 'hwntws', but it was genuinely there as a vague but genuinely held sentiment. And one of the consequences was that Plaid was rather vaguely thought to be a party for 'them' further west, but not really one for 'us over by here'!

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In reply to John Ellis

Chris Jones

I agree. Off topic abit. As a 'marketing' person, I've always thought that the Plaid logo is wrong - to me it's a childish spirograph and yellow which is never a good colour to choose for a political party (yes, I know it's supposed to represent the Welsh poppy). Imagery has enormous subliminal effects and if I was advising Plaid I would think on this. Expensive I know but doable.

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In reply to Chris Jones

John Ellis

I wasn't aware of the notion that Plaid opted for yellow as the colour of the 'Welsh poppy' - though is it, actually, since some of ours are, and always have been, orange! But I might chew over any possible significance around that point!

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In reply to John Ellis

Annibendod

Another thoughtful response from you John which I appreciate. Yes, there is substance but only in so far as the myth is believed. I grew up in a south east Wales town that anglicised in front of my eyes as I grew up. I remember the old Welsh speakers who made a big fuss of me in the Capel. I remember the Welsh mums and dads who didn't speak Cymraeg referring to me as "one of the Welsh kids". I cannot begin to explain the stupidity of that sort of "othering". Yet it is there and that sadly is the substance. I am personally fully on board with Cymdeithas' proposal to move towards a fully Welsh Medium education system as soon as possible so that all Welsh children receive their cultural inheritance. Being bilingual is win-win. But I believe it will take more than that for Cymraeg to be the living language of our communities. That is a matter of choice which can never be forced. There is a great deal we can do to support it however. I am heartened by a very large survey that was carried out in 2018. It reported that 83% of Welsh residents who did not speak Welsh thought that more should be done to support the language - about 65% wished they could speak it. Now that is the truth about attitudes towards Cymraeg. The anti Welsh brigade are merely a noisy minority. Pointless feeding into their narrative, if not downright destructive.

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In reply to Annibendod

John Ellis

'I am personally fully on board with Cymdeithas’ proposal to move towards a fully Welsh Medium education system as soon as possible so that all Welsh children receive their cultural inheritance. Being bilingual is win-win.' I couldn't agree with you more on the principle of that; it's one of the reasons why I set myself the task of learning Welsh once, as a Saes in my 20s, I decided that I was settling here. I'm still learning now - I can't claim colloquial fluency - some local accents and colloquialisms still baffle me! - but I understand a great deal more, especially from watching S4C, which is an really significant benefit. However, my partner has family in south-eastern Ireland, and when I was younger and fitter we used to visit them regularly. Which made me aware that the Irish school curriculum includes Irish Gaelic as a compulsory element from primary onward, and yet ability in the use of the language, let alone confident fluency in it, still seems a distant prospect. Though given that I've heard it spoken in the street a fair amount when I've ventured further west - to west County Cork, for instance - which may suggest that at least it's holding its own in the areas where it hadn't long died out. But the Irish experience seems to me to suggest that 'a fully Welsh medium education system' will have quite be haul in terms of trying to re-normalize routine use of the language in areas where that's long been gone. But I agree: while the Welsh language doesn't thus far seem to be regaining much ground as a routinely spoken language in that many places, I never encountered any hostility towards its promotion in the linguistically anglicized areas of south-east Wales where I lived in the '70s and early '80s, nor in the north-east where I live now. 'The anti Welsh brigade' do indeed seem to be no more than 'a noisy minority'.

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CapM

The Senedd election results and turnout will depend a lot on how well the government informs and educates the electorate about the new system. Will the Labourpartyinwales do what's required especially if polls indicate they will likely lose their grip on governing Cymru. I expect the LibDems, Greens and ReformUK to back the new system and the Tories to slag it off until the reality of battling RefrormUK dawns on them. However in the run up to the election I can't see supporters of those three parties self indulgently whinging and whining about the evil of closed lists. Which would give them an advantage over any non British Nationalist Party whose supporters couldn't contain their annoyance at having to accept something better rather than best.

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Billy James

Dim diolch.

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Linda Jones

I can only hope that Plaid pulls this off and wins the next election. They have a good chance I believe as Labour have lost credibility.

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John Ellis

The currently uncertain element affecting the next Senedd election in the light of the new voting system which will be in place by then is how Farage's faction will perform. GB News appears to be predicting that they'll outpoll the Conservatives in those elections, but then they would, wouldn't they?! And apparently they're basing their prediction on research which first appeared in Wales Online. But my guess is that it's not unfeasible: in last July's Westminster election Reform came second in thirteen Welsh constituencies, and it seems a fair bet that most - though of course not all - of their votes will come from folk who previously would have backed the Tories.

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Replying to CapM Cancel

It was either closed lists or keep the current system. Surely a pragmatist would understand what was the better/less bad option.

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