'Irrelevant' Plaid is isolated in the Bay Bubble: We need to empower the people of Wales

sound balanced comments from Mr McEvoy, much as expected. This man has the right "form"and people well away from the Cardiff bubble are beginning to see him as a thought leader rather than the compliant group who seem more concerned about "what Labour may think". He's been inside the Labour Party and knows how bad it stinks. Just the man to tell it as it is.

Is Mr.McEvoy the stalking horse or the horse?

Very encouraging words. I'm not so sure about the reference to John Lewis Partnership, as the company isn't as enlightened as all that, (they have form for exploiting contract cleaners, for example) and perhaps the huge Mondragon Corporation would have been a better example, (though this federation of worker co-ops has its less positive sides too). Mondragon started as a small co-operative making paraffin heaters in 1956 and has grown immensely. Imagine what could happen if a series of small, worker owned enterprises were helped into existence using freely available Open Source technologies that immensely lower the barriers to entry into industrial production? Much of Wales suffers from huge economic deficits that any government would struggle to cover using conventional methods, and Open Source offers a way to get industries up and running at low cost. Indeed, I think that Wales could gear itself to becoming a major contributor to Open Source ideas. The use of Open Source projects as a basis for marketable products massively reduces the costs, thus making ideas that would otherwise be completely unviable possible, and could offer an alternative to poverty pay working in tourism. Many places in Wales have industrial estates with long term vacant premises that could usefully be brought back into use to produce products based on Open Source projects, linked in to Wales' university sector to further develop these projects could enhance those products made in Wales, and thus improve both Wales' trade with the world and improve and raise standards of living in Wales itself as well as offering stable careers to those young people who at present feel they have to move away in order to find work that pays decently. We don't get enough of these kinds of ideas from Plaid, which is a bit of a shame when considering the past when eminent Plaid thinkers, such as Dr D J Davies wrote passionately on how co-operative principles and democratic control of industry were relevant to Wales. Anyone who has read the collection of his essays published under the title 'Towards Welsh Freedom' will know how inspirational he was. Many of the ideas he discussed are still as relevant today, as they were all those years ago. He was obviously very inspired by Scandinavia, which is something that is also equally relevant today.

Plaid's weakness is also its strength. Its not a working class party, its a diverse party with a membership who have sigificant range of different priorities. Most are not aligned with the ambitions of the leadership (current or future if above). Rather than telling us what to think, both Neil and Leanne could do with listening a lot more to the people of Wales and Plaid members. A party should be far more than just its leadership.

A lot of gocd in here. Neil clearly has the potential to deliver on Leanne's leadership pitch that she could find new support in areas Plaid has never won before. She failed at this. One part struck me which gets to the heart of why Plaid can't do this: "We must stand for a reversal of the centuries old trend of young people having to leave Wales to seek their fortune." These days this happens because good candidates are being passed over for jobs because they don't speak Welsh. They are oftern beaten by a less experienced person who does. I have seen this countless tmies now. They end up leaving Wales to have their skills appreciated. For too long the answer to this question to Plaid Cymru is that they should speak Welsh too. For as long as that's the party's anwer they will never be applicable to the other 85% of Wales.

"its a diverse party with a membership who have significant range of different priorities." This describes Cymru perfectly. Plaid Cymru are the Party of Wales afterall. Neil McEvoy - a man of Cymru!

"We will not move Wales forward until we move Labour out of the way. Let’s get it done." Now that is the starting point for an interesting article. How does the author propose to do that? The rest of the article is a not-so-subtle bid for the leadership. As for Plaid being irrelevant... we have as many MPs as we've ever had, equal our greatest number of councillors, we run four councils, our two Police Commissioners are setting the agenda and our AMs are challenging a weak and tired Labour Government. His mention of co-ops and a grassroots party could come straight from "Greenprint for the Valleys" written a decade ago by a certain Leanne Wood. Rather than undermining his own party for his own personal ends, rekindling the string of demoralising anonymous briefings over the summer, perhaps the author could show a little more teamwork rather than ego? Plaid Cymru at the grassroots is working hard to get rid of Labour. Neil McAvoy just seems to be working hard to get rid of Leanne.

Some sound points from Neil here. He's is absolutely on the money that Plaid Cymru have to put the Welsh National Project first and foremost And build up from community level rather than focusing on the bubble in the bay. Not pandering to identity/gender/progressive or whatever other type of politics is the flavour of the month above all else as has been the case over the past few years. I would like to see him take part in a leadership contest for Plaid. He could definitely reach people that other much vaunted candidates could not, e.g Rhun ap Iorwerth. Although personally: I would like to see Jonathan Edwards leading PC. He's a commanding speaker in both Welsh and English, and is not afraid to put the case for Welsh nationalism. He's also got a bid of an "edge" around him, which could appeal to the audience who have long decided that Leanne, nice as she is, does not really cut the mustard. I know Plaid have go this internal rule that only an Assembly member can lead the party: but that rule is a complete ass if it prevents somebody of the calibre of Jonathan Edwards from standing. And Liz Saville Roberts for that matter. Why don't Plaid canvass the members about opening up any possible leadership race to ALL AM's/MP's candidates- instead of falling back on this rule as if was indeed one of the tablets that Moses came down the mountain with? I'm pretty sure the membership would like to see as open a contest as possible.

Fringe meeting Friday 20th October, lunchtime at the Royal Celtic Hotel. Buffet provided by sponsors. "20:20, a Clear Vision for Plaid going into 2021." Ideas in the article to be discussed.

I support most of what Neil McEvoy is saying here. But liberalism is not the problem, Britishness is. After independence, conservatives and capitalists will be a part of this country. If we do not include them as part of an independent Wales, it will lead to political and social tensions for generations after idependence as they try to assert a voice for themselves.

The only irrelevant thing here is the author. It's astonishing that he has any support given his reported bullying case.

Well Neil is never one to hold back, and it seems clear this piece is a thinly disguised attack on plaid's leadership. But it should be pointed out Leanne Wood won a labour heartland seat last year (rhondda) defeating a welsh labour heavyweight (leighton andrews) in the process. Also worth pointing out that like neil she had a working class upbringing and was 'politicised during the 80s with the miners’ strike, the teachers’ strikes, cuts and an anti-society right wing dogma ripping apart our communities'. 　

I have been a critic of Plaid for many years, outwardly they are seeking independence but are afraid to actually achieve it. Plaid is just another Labour Party full of nepotism and weak leadership. I have read a few things about Neil and must say he is saying the right things and I like his aggressive approach to politics but still not sure if it's not just hot air, only time will tell. Plaid needs new and progressive leadership or it will die.

Well said Neil!

We don't need more messing around with co-ops. It's romanticised. Ditto easy slogans about neo-liberalism. We need a private sector economy. I'd be surprised to hear what trade deals Plaid Cymru are relentlessly defending because MacEvoy doesn't actually say and I've only heard them attack trade. Spell it out.

Yes, the Labour Party is the political establishment in Wales- and the Labour Party in Wales has always been distracted by the aspiration of gaining power at Westminster. Plaid Cymru has developed into, or perhaps always been, something of cosy Welsh Institution What Wales needs is a radical, transformative party with a sense of urgency with a charismatic leader capable of reaching out to the diversity which is modern Wales and who is keenly aware the world stands on the threshold of huge, technological, social and quite probably environmental change and understands the threats and opportunities posed. “Empowerment” like that buzz phrase doing the rounds at the moment “take back control” is a seductive notion. Hopefully "empowerment" means something other than armies of povertarians descending on Wales’ impoverished communities to do bourgeois oblige. Surely, if you're born into disadvantage, failed by the education system and unable to network yourself into a better life, you’ve suffered enough already!

I'm a member of the Scottish National Party. I came to Wales 15 months ago. I'd love to join Plaid Cymru, bur a great deal of my interest and effort is put into the Scottish Independence movement. We're almost there. It will, however, take every every thought and passion to present the true case for independence when the British Nationalist establishment and their "Newspaper" propagandists come against as as they dis with lies and distortions, and breaking of the Edinburgh Agreement , as they did in 2014. I wish Wales well, and will do all I can to further the cause of Independence for Wales.

McEvoy scares the crap out of Labour. I can't say the same of any other Plaid AMs at the moment. Labour try all they can to destroy him, including a politically-motivated 'bullying case' fitted up by an 'ombudsman' who is an ex-Labour political wonk. Labour are the establishment and Plaid has a choice: take on the establishment or become a rather minor part of it. McEvoy has scared Labour, the tories, lobbying firms, property developers, and nepotistic councillors, as well as a FM who doesn't tell the truth on certain key matters. It's about time Plaid AMs got their hands dirty. I also don't think McEvoy wants to be leader. He's just sick of seeing Plaid own goals like their pathetic 'vote Plaid get Corbyn's policies' election gambits. One thing I have noticed is that people are starting to be more excited about IndyWales than about Plaid, because Plaid is no longer seen as the best way to deliver it. In many ways that is good, because it depoliticises Home Rule, independence etc. But for a party that wants to run the Assembly it's a disaster. Plaid needs grand national vision, pragmatism, hard and fearless campaigning against a dirty fighting Labour Party, and an end to the student politics waffle that looks copied from a sixth form election.

Interesting point there by Cofi Dre. He/ she has hit the nail on the head. There is definitely a growing interest in Independence for Wales. You can really sense it out there. But it correlates with a drop in electoral support for Plaid Cymru and a deep disillusionment in the ranks about the party and its current leadership. Now, you would think that interest in independence would be affected by this, and that the whole concept would thus become irrelevant. But in fact it's the exact opposite! Hard to explain this surge in interest in Indepedence when the only party which has shown any form of interest in it has been rejected at the ballot box so often Maybe it's a combination of Euros 2016, and Brexit? Allied to a general sense that all the present parties are useless. All i would say is there is a hidden depth, a hidden profundity to Wales. Based on a deep sense of spirituality ( ignore the 7% church going figure). In fact i would venture to say that Wales's spirituality will be our secret weapon in the struggle for Independence. Whitehall and all its wiles will have no answer to this as they will just not be able to comprehend it.

Leanne wood said this about progressive community politics. http://leannewoodamac.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/occupy-cardiff.html?m=1 Neil mcevoy had people arrested because there was a car show on. Keep sucking the kool aid Plaid. All this rubbish of being inspired by plaid members, he was kicked out of the CLP and then tried to join the greens before settling for plaid years after his supposed damascus moment. Mcevoy just keeps on lying. The more he says the more obvious his BS becomes. Didn't he join the party because he met a swedish welsh speaker in magaluf? Different day, different tale. What a tangled web he weaves.

'we have prior agreement on how many votes the Government will win by'

I was with a group of friends, most of whom vote Plaid and admire Leanne Wood, at the Save Womanby Street rally a few months ago when Macevoy got up on the stage to peddle his own agenda and dig into Labour. None of us are active in Plaid, but we were all cringing. He talks of appealing to young people but he was doing exactly the opposite. It was painful to watch.

I agree with Neil's view. Plaid needs to set out an exciting new vision for Wales. The future is a blank canvass. Labour is more interested in their own careers, and have created a Senedd that is bland and a clone of Whitehall. Often public sector bodies , funded by the Welsh Government work against the people, stifling creativity an entrepreneurship, and persecuting the hard working , decent people of Wales. In terms of character, local councils and the Welsh Government are as un Welsh in temperament as you can get. Often spiteful, dismissive and out of touch. Labour is obsessed with the Tories, and vice versa. I would like to see a Plaid that isn't scared to strike out to create a vibrant, forward thinking and dynamic Wales, driven by entrepreneurial spirit, capitalising on new sustainable energy development, and attracting silicon valley and global companies to tap into the generous, warm and kind culture that is the Welsh. The smugness of the first minister and his team, and the strange oddity that is the Sec state of Wales, are not natural products of our Great Nation. A Great Wales in a Great Britain

A couple of observations on some comments. RE: Occupy. The usual lies peddled by the same UK nats who posture and are greatly disturbed by Plaid's progress in Cardiff. Andrew Jinks also comes out with his UK nat comrades' usual smears. Little substance, more allegation. Data does not lie. Cardiff West is the stand out area in Wales for growth in Plaid Assembly vote. Only 4 constituencies have grown Assembly votes since 1999. 3,402 to 10,205 in Cardiff West is by far the best.. The problem with Andrew's narrative is that facts get in the way. As a candidate in 2015, the team and me doubled our vote. We also almost doubled the vote in 2016. Before I joined Plaid in 2003, Plaid had a serious interest in 1 out of 75 council seats in Cardiff. On May 5th, we woke up holding 3 with the biggest Plaid councillor votes in Wales (2414, 2,349 and 2017 votes). Lisa Ford did very well and is well respected, hence her 2,349 votes (reply to Occupy's dig). We are now 2nd in 20 seats and winnable 3rds in 5 others. Our aim is to be the biggest Party in Cardiff. The growth in Cardiff has been organic and not fuelled by central party resources. When we run our usual campaigns in Cardiff, we increase support substantially. The key point is that we campaign permanently. Arm chair and key board warriors hate the fact that we go out and do the business. We support the vulnerable and defend those who can't defend themselves: that's the real meaning of solidarity; it's not an obscure concept in a book. If you look at increased turn outs time after time, you will see that hope is replacing apathy. Our 2017 Cardiff Plaid Council campaign in particular provided solutions and was very positive. There is a long way to go and we will continue to work hard. In the meantime, the trolls illustrate our effectiveness. Their criticism is personal and not political. Enough said.

Andrew, I hadn't realised it was you posting as "Occupy" also. My comments re: lies & UK nats pertained to that post. I wasn't suspended for bullying anyone in 2011 by the way. In language which could have been better phrased, I was highlighting the dangers of good fathers being kept out of childrens' lives and the damage done to children as a result. People like you seem to think it is fine and dandy to support people withdrawing contact from loving parents. I don't. As for your comments on electoral support, the figures say more than you ever could.