In defence of Welsh nationalism

Very nice article. "Neither does it seek to impose ‘our’ culture, language or way of life on any other countries. It recognises and appreciates cultural diversity." Not sure that works in the south. The education system I went through made Welsh language feel like it was forced - it did more to put off a generation rather than embrace it - later as most of us come to understand our identity that changes but really its got to change at the school level. It is/was in a sense exactly what the English did - so in a way it does feel Welsh language is out to conquer the south. I think it was coming from people who although spoke Welsh did not necessarily think Welsh. It was the language of the place they lived they knew no different. But our identity is more than language and that needed to be taught too - why we don't speak Welsh, why we should speak Welsh and more importantly how to view the world from a Welsh perspective rather than a British one. Part of me thinks the Labour Party do it this way in order to put people off learning - because it really is half arsed: "You only need to stay for 20 minutes than you can leave". That was what I was told during my GCSE Welsh exam. Attitudes need to change there. On both sides.

I'm struggling to disagree with any of this, and the general message of the article is by no means a Wales-specific one either. I see no reason for nationalism in each nation to exist in a vacuum, rather it's an ideology that provides a certain view of how the world would best work. As such I do feel that it's important that nationalism in Wales works alongside nationalism elsewhere to further its core goals. That means solidarity with nations like Catalonia, but also working alongside the progressive side of the English national movement on mutual interests. As someone who came to Wales from England aged 9, learnt Welsh, and 11 years later feels an affinity to both nations, I think it's important that we have a Welsh nationalism that is not Anglophobic, and an English nationalism that is not culturally imperialist. Rather both nations need to become comfortable with their national identities and the fact that they are different, and not to want to impose them on others beyond each nation's 'milltir sgwâr'.

A well written piece. That supporting the status-quo is just as nationalist as wanting change - in fact often a lot more so given all the trappings of large states such as the UK - has been an under-used argument. ? one small typo - tacit not tactic.

Yes, a well-argued article. I'm delighted also that your colleague Nathan has made such good progress with his Welsh learning. His attitude towards our country despite the criticisms I voiced in response to his article, certainly put other English settlers to shame. I trust he will commit fully to investing in Welsh culture and continue to set a good example. Is he now planning on joining Plaid Cymru, notwithstanding its current questionable position on independence? Welsh nationalism is, as you say, of the benign kind, and this is to its credit considering that it has been fighting a defensive war for so long. Its aim is to rescue, preserve, and safeguard (through constitutional and legislative change) what remains to us after decades (indeed, centuries) of depredation, and to build on this in the future. It won't be easy, considering the damage already done, and there will be winners and losers, but I don't think it will be violent - at least, not on our part.

To be honest, I think it's more important to win over those who were born here than migrants. Why would an English person become a Welsh nationalist? Why would we expect them to become Welsh, let alone Welsh nationalists? I know many English people who've learned Welsh and show repect towards our culture but none of them speak with a Welsh accent, have Welsh mannerisms and so-on. This is in stark contrast to when Welsh people move to England... most start speaking RP and adopt English tastes in clothing/food/media/politics before the end of their first term at university! If I moved to France, I would attempt to learn the language and respect the culture but I would never see it as my own culture or part of my identity. There are hundreds of thousands of people in Glamorgan and Gwent who are Welsh in spirit and identity that need to engage with the wider nation and the peoples of Dyfed and Gwynedd need to engage with them too.

You might like to read this! http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/10th-september-1937/12/in-defence-of-welsh-nationalism

In general I find myself in agreement with this article, however I detected a little of that Welsh tendency, (actually rife in Plaid Cymru) to make too many allowances for those who have chosen to move here. Cultural diversity is fine, to a point, and is not really a problem with any other cultural identity than the English. Whilst I have little personal angst towards the English, per se, many of us find them myopic in the extreme when it comes to them recognising our rights in our own country: for them Wales is merely a part of Greater England, and though they may consider themselves 'alternative' all I see are people who, unwittingly or not, are acting as England's cultural shock troops. It's important to point out that there are exceptions, and we must acknowledge the contribution of those who have made their home here and become, through their actions, Welsh citizens - people such as Peter Lord or Steve Eaves. In point 2 of your conclusion I have to pull you up a bit on semantics. You used the word 'integrate' as if it were something less than positive, when integration is probably the most positive result we can expect from any first generation migrant moving to our country. Integration does not seek to deny, or to obliterate identities but merely expects people who move to somewhere not their place of origin to respect the values and culture of their new home; it's an additive process rather than subtractive in that both the person moving gains, and also the host country gains as the culture is subtly changed and enriched. I think the term you were looking for was assimilation, which is always a far more negative and sinister term. On a slightly more farcical, but very illustrative note, I once had the experience of having a discussion with an English person relatively newly arrived in Wales who opined that the problem with the Welsh, she thought, was that they didn't integrate very well with English settlers, (and overlords?). Needless to say, that conversation came to an abrupt end. I would never go so far as to suggest that all English people in Wales are of this opinion, but far too many are and I'm really surprised that IMJ hasn't acknowledged this. Perhaps he's still in denial that there are a lot of English settlers that are either antipathetic or hostile towards Wales and especially the Welsh, whilst the Welsh roll over and accept the widespread mistreatment meted out by these settlers and their organisations - one only has to look at the example of the Centre for Alternative Technology, many times being caught out for their mistreatment of Welsh speaking staff, and indeed, not making it a condition of employment that all staff be fluent in Welsh, in an area where more than 50% of the local population is Welsh speaking. The CAT website is a disgrace, and to think that this colony, (for what else is it?) sucks up public money from the Welsh government with seemingly no requirement on the organisation to respect the genus loci. It's one thing to praise the contributions of those who have moved here from elsewhere, but completely another to airbrush out those who are quite simply colonists who do little other than undermine our very existence. I don't place the blame for this state of affairs too much with the colonists themselves. They are of course, culpable, but my ire is far more with the spineless Welsh who do nothing to counter the colonialism that threatens our very existence as a nation. Sadly there appears to be an element in this article of the old apologism about being Welsh. We don't need to explain, to justify our existence, nor do we need to bend over backwards, (easy with no spine I guess) to be especially nice and accommodating towards English settlers, who will only see insincerity and despise us all the more. We need to respect ourselves, and through this gain the respect of others. Anyone who really understands imperialism, (and too many in the Welsh national movement don't) knows that appeasement isn't effective, or even attractive. It's the standing up and insisting on being ones self and robustly defending one's values that gains respect. For me it's a two way street, nationalism means nothing unless it's also fundamentally internationalist also. A large flaw with much Welsh nationalism is that it concentrates too much on the internationalism so much that it loses and undermines itself in the process. We really do need to stop looking over our shoulders so much and worrying what the Sais will think about us. It's high time that parchusrwydd was jettisoned and a backbone was grown in it's place

Welsh Nationalism was hot and I mean on fire in 1979 with the Holiday Home Arson Campaign. Meibion Glyndwr may not have identified themselves as Welsh Nationalists but to many outside of Wales watching the the news on 'Nationwide' they were the public/private face of Welsh Nationalism. It can be argued that Thatcher and Whitelaw by giving Wales S4C actually diluted this red hot Nationalism. They realised that 'Divide & Conquer' worked and that the Welsh would be no different to everybody else and people sublimated their red hot Welsh Nationalism into securing for themselves cushy jobs in the 'Cyfryngau'. Unlike Alun Cairns, the Secretary of State for the Western Powerhouse on BBC Question Time I will not mix the two up but it is interesting to note from their Wikipedia Page that Plaid Cymru states. Plaid Cymru's goals as set out in its constitution are: To promote the constitutional advancement of Wales with a view to attaining independence within the European Union; To ensure economic prosperity, social justice and the health of the natural environment, based on decentralist socialism; To build a national community based on equal citizenship, respect for different traditions and cultures and the equal worth of all individuals, whatever their race, nationality, gender, colour, creed, sexuality, age, ability or social background; To create a bilingual society by promoting the revival of the Welsh language; To promote Wales's contribution to the global community and to attain membership of the United Nations. Now that the European Union is no more or will be no more after March 2019 will this constitution be changed to attaining Independence within or without the United Kingdom? Would this then be considered a defensive or aggressive nationalism?

We have got to remember that banal, unthinking British nationalism is the default setting for most people in Wales. It's a type of nationalism which is never though of or identified as nationalism as such- but in a way it could be termed nationalism plus.. It's the cleverest form of nationalism since the individual does not have to do anything at all in effect to assert his/her nationalism. All you need to do is to sit there whilst it is regularly beamed into our living rooms every night, making it therefore as commonplace,comfortable and reassuring as the dear old cat safely ensconsed on your sofa. And of course it is regularly re-asserted and reinforced. The Winter Olympics in Korea is just the latest manifestation with good old Auntie obsessing itself once again with how many medals "Great Britain" can win, and each single broadcast seeking to show the union flag as many times as possible. My point is: can Welsh nationalism as such ever compete with this British nationalism? And should it even try? It's a fight we can never win as things stand. Whilst I will always identify myself personally as a Welsh Nationalist( and Anarchist!), I have my doubts whether we should actually position the national movement in this way. Indepedence rather than nationalism should be our rallying cry. And we should identify ourselves as Independistas rather than nationalists. We will be ticking exactly the same boxes. But boxing clever. "Os na fydd gryf- bydd gyfrwys"( If you can't be strong- be cunning"

Indeed and it is that sort of language which puts people and people like me off . I am Welsh but proud to be British.. Great Britain is in the name - it means Wales as well and both are Great. Such language is extremism which does the majority of reasonable people in this wonderful part of the U.K.no good at all.

Brian, I agree with you totally. Such language has abounded from the nationalist community all my life and it has resulted in what. A tv channel that so few watch that is propped by government, a fine advert for the relevance of the language. The BBC in Wales that behave like TASS. There is also The Assembly which has covered itself in failure and embarrassment. There may be a chance to alter things if we end up with less MP's, which is entirely fair and reasonable if you are a democrat. The call then for more AM's then makes sense if The Assembly is also restructured such that the current system where there is too little scrutiny and the main parties really cannot be wiped out is changed so that it might possible to remove Labour from office. I say this as a Labour party member, but I can also see the damage it has done to them too. I see that the current cosey relationship between parties has done Wales no good at all, the Neil Mcavoy saga illustrates this with such light and precision. As for Plaid's possible role in the future, for Labour it is far to easy in the short term!!!! To coin a phrase from the G Bush era - Keep Leanne healthy

You don't have to defend Welsh nationilsm, you just have to prepare for independence. The UK is done, the tribes of this island are deciding this union is failed and they are rejecting it. Look around, do you think Manchester is getting devolution because the union is working? Did London get a mayor and assembly because they wanted a pretty building? All the new city mayors are being appointed to lower the unemployment stats? It's because the union is dissolving. The devolved powers are not progresso, they are reactive. We demand and we will get. We are winning. The United kingdom is over. Welcome to a federal UK and then Independent nations. A free Cumbria, Cornwall, Wales. Don't tell me I'm wrong, give me the evidence that regional power is dissolving and being centralised? It's not. People all over the UK are rejecting the union. British nationalist, British and European unionists, it's over. The expansionist, globalist agenda is failed.

Ade, You will have more success in planning for the second coming. I will tell you that you are wrong, not because it does not fit with my view of the best way forward, but because the facts disprove it. Against the worst election campaign in living memories by the Tories, and Labour having the third team in place, Plaid got absolutely nowhere in terms of the percentage vote. You have more in common with Timothy Leary than Mystic Meg in the political soothsaying stakes!

The very reason that Plaid has and is not getting anywhere is that by associating themselves with the radical elements of the Welsh Language, Independence Movement and those offering to light a warming fire for absent homeowners, they have alienated themselves from the vast majority of the electorate who disagree entirely with these issues and profoundly too. Many of these were not born in Wales, are second generation immigrants, or live near England and have first hand experience of the English without two heads. Unless all three issues are dropped entirely they will never achieve the critical mass required to have any real influence in Wales, The Assembly or Westminster. The only achievement that Plaid can look forward to is keeping Labour in Power by ruling out working with the Tories. Putting (dubious)principles before power is not the thinking of a sophisticated party, but one where thinking is straight out of the common room. One final thought, a laughable policy on nuclear power rules out the green vote too!

It appears that Nigel Bull is really just John Bull, and appears to have strayed over here from the BBC Wales HYS anti-Welsh language pointy-head zone. We've been listening to these people for 50 years, they are the establishment, and they represent the Labour party stranglehold on Wales. The reason Plaid is failing Wales is because they're cosying up to Labour, not because they're taking them on. And what , pray , is a 'radical element of a language'? You having trouble with your English? As for "The Assembly which has covered itself in failure and embarrassment" , we know of course how great Westminster has been ... The Assembly shows what happens when you have a rotten and inept Labour party running Wales at every level, with a scared so-called opposition trying to cuddle up to them. One thing we could so to start with is stop saying 'The Assembly, and instead say 'The Labour government'. Labour in Wales really is the vampire feasting off the barely living body of a once hugely productive country,and that has understood that the poorer and less educated people are, the more likely they are to vote Labour. That Plaid can't dent them when they're at their weakest and when the tories are at their most disgusting is a sign - and here I agree with John Bull - that it's a party in serious danger.

How will we know Wales is no longer a colony though? I have seen countries declare independence but are still heavily dependent on their colonial mother

My postings are intended to serious, provocative, still somewhat tongue in cheek, but observations rather than political dogma regurgitated! Firstly in general. Plaid are all but spent. Given the disarray in all the opposing parties for various reasons, that they cannot make even a dent means that they never will in their present form. This is not a viewpoint, but a statement of fact. A well meaning leader, but one without the intellect, vision and presentation skills to make a real difference. The disproportionate exposure to media that she receives cannot make up for this fact. There is a complete political realignment occurring throughout the world. The parties that can change to align themselves with these changed times will be those that succeed. Many of you will have taken the political compass test(and should you wonder I have consistently scored as moderately left with a slight bias towards either Libertarianism or Authoritarianism, depending on the questions asked or my mood) I would suggest that reality of political life now has many extra dimensions depending on preference for radical(mostly those on here for instance) or appeasing all(Liberal party and on life support electorally), Class, Voting History, Religion, Education, Sex, Culture, Wealth. Geographical Position, Age. I could probably go on for quite a while, but the point remains that in almost any case that you may care to mention, any one of the above trump(literally at times) the rest. Plaid fails on Culture, Voting History, Geographical Position as well as the reality of a general conservative nature of the Welsh and an approx 25% plus that will always vote for a "conservative " party. If there is a potential Plaid leader that can pull all those disparate strings together in coherent manner, I have yet to see them and it is certainly not the current leader. The Cardiff cage rattler is not included, as too many have skin to lose in his particular game. Now to John Young I did not mention which elements of the Welsh Language precisely. You did and your argument then falls out of the sky in flames as in principle I do not disagree! I would mention the hunger strike to promote the devolving of broadcasting control. The immediate inference is that it would be politicised then come under the control of the very politicians and establishment that you wish to remove, a very smart move. S4C is the mad aunt of the Welsh Language as for a vast amount of time "no one" watches it despite being propped up by a vast amount of subsidy that is visible and another vast amount of advertising that is placed by government funded/influenced organisations. There are huge swaths of the country that at best ambivalent to the language and at worst hostile because of this and the prescribed welshness that appears to be promoted by it. The figures for pupils(parents) opting for the the Welsh medium do so in order to get to a school with a better "class" of pupils and because of many jobs appearing to be for Welsh speakers only. That so many leave the country after graduating because of lack of opportunity means that the bare figures for use go down as it is not a language that reflects the culture of the country of the WHOLE. Re independence, I will not argue with the poll and will take it as read initially. Any referendum in the future will be a straight choice, so on current form you will have to persuade nearly a third of the electorate that will turn out to change their minds. You can see now the establishment behind the Remain Campaign and what happened during the Scottish referendum. There is built-in resistance to change by those that will lose influence, accept it. Then we come on to the economic viability. There is no way that Wales can go it alone at the moment. It is off the agenda until Brexit plays out which could be long and bloody. Then you have to both have to get the economy able to sustain itself and persuade the electorate that they will; be better off in the most general sense. When and if, and it is a big if, the economy improves drastically for those that live outside of the cities specifically (as those areas have the biggest problems), people will have more to lose and tend to vote for the more conservative parties and fall under their influence. Now I say this as a reluctant Labour member(with almost total disillusionment of the party both in Wales and outside) The best way to achieve your aims is to get yourself in a position to be an alternate party of government. That means dumping all the doctrine, dogma and wishes from the past that do not align with the views of the majority. I am sorry to sound like Mandy who I detest, but it is a fact of life if you want make changes. This also means taking the moral high ground on all issues, which as a party it has not done. You also have to get outside your comfort zone, being on here actually being one in itself! I read the Telegraph on a Sat and Sunday. I learn a lot that is new although I do not agree with much that is written, but if my thoughts do not stand up to scrutiny, then they lack merit. Wales as nation is far to inward looking, those being closer to to England less so as it is less "foreign" to them. The mocking of the recent Cairns initiative was typical. Tories are just like you and me, just with different backgrounds, experience and views for the best way forward. Sure there are those like Gideon who bordered on being a psychopath, but that influence is long gone. Whilst there are very serious issues regarding inequality, housing costs etc and so very much to be done. There was a silence of condemnation perceived over the action taken which still exists to this day. I say this carefully and with no wish to points score but this is true. Wrexhamian You make a very good point re the third sector. Plaid have a finger in the till over this area too. Until they stamp out cronyism they are not just as bad, but worse than Labour. Kairdiff Kid I could point out the many failings of your words, which suggest CSE but I will not stoop. You know what I mean. There is a gist to my points which are serious, Labour loves Leanne and RT for that matter, that is why they do not give her a hard time. Plaid has done little and is likely to do even less in the future unless you change. The future was there at one time, now thrown out! I want a serious challenge to Labour so that they do not take the electorate for granted. Vented my spleen now, off for some English Breakfast Tea!

I grew up with a Labour MP and council, although we are (Castell Newi). Plaid now wins all the time because of nationalism, although nobody calls it that. It is down to language and our AM, MP and party being "ours". All of the things in Ifan's article. This is considered natural Plaid territory but really we only went with Gwynfor for a bit then turned back to Labour for decades. If anything its going more Plaid, not less. Problem is that kind of nationalism won't work anywhere else. You've got to have Welsh speakers and a community where people spread things by word of mouth. Something like Rhondda might work but that seems to depend on Leanne Wood personally. As do other urban success spots for Plaid. Urban Wales is quite British and not that interested in independence or the Welsh language.

(Sigh). Here we go again. 1/ Plaid Cymru. You're repeating the same points I made with regard to their current failure (which some people think is deliberate) to increase their vote throughout the country. The wrong turn that they took after they 'did a McEvoy' on Dafydd Wigley is common knowledge. We know they're Welsh Labour's bitch, but for the present they're the only party we have that is ostensibly outside the BritNat framework, and we can still hope for a change of direction before a more pro-active party comes along. 2/ The Welsh language. Of course there will always be people, especially in the anglicised 'British Wales' of the east, where there has been large-scale immigration from England, who will be frightened by the hoped-for renaissance of the Welsh language. But many of them are sympathetic and supportive, and of these, many (such as the Jewish lecturer from London at Bangor University who posted an article on this site recently) choose to have their children educated in Welsh medium schools, partly for job opportunities, partly to give their kids the general benefits of bilingualism, and partly as a matter of principle. Some are learning the language themselves, for whatever reason. Increasingly, those who oppose the language will become left behind and irrelevant. 3/ Welsh ownership/control of broadcasting. You've got a point there - what if Labour get their grubby hands on it? It's not going to happen, any more than S4C is run by Plaid Cymru. It may become a tool of the Senedd, but not of Welsh Labour.. Carwyn Jones may be many things, but he's not Putin - there would be too much scrutiny. 4/ Independence. Read the points that I and others made in the post by that young man who's going on hunger strike to highlight the lack of a Welsh voice in British broadcasting and the way that this prevents the Welsh people from having an informed debate on independence and other issues of political concern to this country. This is just one of the reasons why Wales needs ownership/control of broadcasting. 5/ Nigel Bull. This is you, isn't it? I'VE got a hat like that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmENvP3e1ps

The above comments were in reply to Mr. Nigel Bull, not to Red Dragon Jim. Must have pressed the wrong 'Reply' button.

Hah brilliant! thank you for finding out who Nigel Bull is! Love it. True Wales. In other words, the most anti-Welsh, devolution-hating outfit there is. Stayed silent on the Westminster duck house expenses-guzzling scandal ('cause they love their MPs, these butties do, they prostrate themselves before London rule which for them can do no wrong) but went on and on about the Assembly 'trough'. I once met a chap from True Wales at a stall in Cardiff who started about the need for bringing power closer to the people, told me how corrupt the assembly was etc, and within 5 minutes was slagging off Welsh speakers, going on about roadsigns, and telling me 'all' jobs in public life and broadcasting and culture were for Welsh speakers. (In fact I believe it's rather less than that - something like 16% according to an investigation done by Martin Shipton). Hated Welsh-speakers, and wasn;t too fond of east Europeans, not that he'd met any of either, so far as I could tell. Told me he was Labour through and through, and then that he was thinking of going Tory. This was a little before UKIP made their big inroads, but I imagine he ended up there. I had a feeling our Nigel was of that ilk, mainly because of the arc of his 'argument' (whatever they're notionally talking about, it always ends up being about Welsh speakers, S4C and the Assembly), and the general monomaniacal nature of the post I recognise from BBC Wales 'forums' where it's open season on Welsh and Wales.

Nigel and True Wales have big support here, among Christian Doctrine. I especially enjoyed the allegation that the Welsh Assembly creates an 'apartheid' system against us English-speakers. We're talking about a nasty, retrograde, dog-whistling outfit. And Christian Doctrine aren't so great either... http://www.christiandoctrine.com/politics-list-view/725-the-true-wales-no-campaign-pokes-one-in-the-eye-of-the-welsh-political-elite

"“Neither does it seek to impose ‘our’ culture, language or way of life on any other countries. It recognises and appreciates cultural diversity.” Not sure that works in the south. " Are you claiming that the south is another country?