How the Welsh independence movement can beat Westminster's populist propaganda

A really good article and I agree with every point Duncan makes especially about taking our message out on the streets talking to people and engaging with them but there is one vital element missing how we are going to pay our way, what will the new Wales look like for businesses and employees. The last 10 years of Tory/Lid-Dem austerity have left most people , even those with a strong social concionse and traditionally to the left of politics, acutely aware that nothing " is free" there is a cost to everything from infrastructure, to health and education and of course in our desire to move to a green economy and unless we can clearly articulate how we are going to pay our way we will never convince sufficient people that independence will lead to the better Wales we all want and are offering. But how do we do that, clearly the current economic model, slavishly clung to by Labour in Wales for the past 20 years and which amounts to little more than public hand outs to Multi Nationals has failed. As we've seen all too often soon as tax payers money stops flowing the large corporations up sticks and disappear leaving behind a huge void. To create The Wales we want, a socially and economically fairer Wales, we need a completly different approach to business than that offered by either Labour or the Tories. We need to build a Welsh economy founded on SME's (small, local business's) who will have a stake in both their local communities and Wales as a whole. Plaid as the largest independence party must start engaging with SME's to develop policies and strategies that can shape and define a new Welsh business model. The recent article by Adam Price on taxation was a great start but we need to do more that just tax differently we need to opperate differently. Interestingly Labours, just launched, international strategy for Wales contained some good points in relation to developing new areas of our international economy although there was nothing in the strategy about SME's, which tends to suggest Labour intend to go down the same old failed line of large corporation hand outs and disapointingly neither was there any mention of existing areas of Welsh business, tourism for example which is significantly underdeveloped and under resourced in comparison to Scotland and Ireland. Mind you the cynic in me says labour shyied away from including current areas of business because their performance could be measured against delivery and when ever Labour in Wales have been measured they have failed, time and time again..... health, education, social care, business. I'll finish as I started I totally agree with everything Duncan says in his article the next 10 years will define Wales for generations to come, it may be now or never, so let those of of who are committed to Welsh independence also grasp the thorny nettle of economics

I, like most commenters and contributers here at Nation Cymru, enjoy participating in the political game. We are the minority here in Wales. Most people feel bored by, lack trust in or let down by our political institutions. Politicians are amongst the least trusted amongst us. Both the article and the above comment make valuable, well reasoned points. I cannot help feeling that the best tactic is to shift focus from political independence. Don't get me wrong, the movement needs a political voice, but it seems to me that Wales may not ever be receptive to this type of message, a politically led one, that is. Once we secure independence, we can vote for whichever guy or gal standing on whichever point our political compass indicates. Until then, I have a gut feeling that 'political independence' should be behind 'cultural independence'.

Take ownership of Ower water/wind etc?(Cofiwch Dryweryn)

Take ownership of ower water/wind etc Cofiwch Dryweryn???

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'I am keen however that the movement embraces those on the centre right also. This must be a movement for all reasonable people who believe in Welsh democracy and better government.' I believe that you're entirely correct. The facts that Wales has for many a long decade elected more Labour MPs to Westminster than those of any other party and has continuously had Labour or Labour-led governments at Cardiff Bay since devolution was established can't disguise the parallel - and to some perhaps inconvenient! - truth that there are a a very significant number of areas where the voters rather rarely elect Labour candidates. I live in one of them. But while devolution was only approved by a whisker and two decades later there hasn't been a single election which has enthused even 50% of the electorate to turn out and vote, there does on the other hand now seem to be not just a general acceptance of devolution but a voter willingness to see more powers and responsibilities devolved to Wales. So we're not exactly pushing at a closed door in seeking to enhance a distinctively Welsh democracy. But if the debate about independence is primarily pursued in the context some sort of vision of socialism - or, indeed, too narrowly around the language issue - it'll doom itself to be the programme of a faction, because it'll be taking insufficient heed of the actual interests and concerns of a great many Welsh citizens.

Technical quibble first: I expect that this will be posted under my wife’s name, because we share an e-mail address, but it’s from me, a male person, Robert Williams! Sorry about that, now on to next quibble: Arwyn Lloyd makes the reasonable point that a movement for independence must not be sectarian, and must be broad enough to include people on the ‘centre right’. But I see no conflict between this and Duncan Fisher’s point that such a movement must be ‘to the left of the current government’. We now have a government not of the centre right, but on the fringes if the far right. Harold MacMillan, Edward Heath, even Cameron and Osborne, were/are clearly to the left of Johnson’s crew, who should perhaps be labelled Johnsonites rather than Conservatives - not to mention the likes of Dominic Grieve or Anna Soubry. To finish in a positive note: cracking article by Duncan Fisher!

Columns with eyes rise to watch you. Sky machines are coming. The new Welsh Longbow has not yet been invented. Our clouds protect us from their sky machines, through which our new longbows fly.

Following the General Election, there is more discussion in the Labour Party about different kinds of patriotism/ nationalism/ citizenship & civic nationalism. This could be a good time for Wales to reflect as the arguments move along in England and Scotland. Many people, in Wales, may instinctively feel that Independence is the right way forward but hesitate to call themselves nationalists. Political engagement, local understanding and trust are extremely important and will build over many years. However these discussions about patriotic feelings may need to begin immediately. For understandable reasons, many people will naturally avoid such discussions which can be hard to get started and easily misunderstood.

A good article. Thanks. One of the priorities is to convince as many as possible of Labour Party members that Wales will be governed by Boris Tories for at least a decade.

Looking at this and recent posts and the comments, independence is being conflated with factional agendas: tractions for some, turn-offs for others. Listen to real people, find out what they want for their families and communities and the wider world, link those aspirations where you can to dissolution of the UK. Do Old Grey Whistle Tests on every idea. Don't rely on people falling for: "Trust me, I'm a DIFFERENT kind of politician". Identify, target and network influencers

Why re invent the wheel? We could use Labour's Green Industrial Policy as a template?