English fragility, shame, and the Welsh language debate

And yet I have never heard objections to Wesh signs on trains in England or bilingual signs in hospitals the other side of the Clawdd.

Erthygl hynod o sensitf a deallus - diolch yn fawr

Erthygl diddorol iawn. Very interesting article, but I suspect that the forces behind the Anti Welsh language sentiment held by some, are multifaceted and go beyond ‘English fragility’ (described here as the fear of relinquishing cultural dominance which stems from a fear of relinquishing cultural dominance). I have never understood the apparent disdain towards the Language held by some compatriots here in Wales, but I suspect it has to do with bravado to mask an underlying feeling of inadequacy. This is not their fault, as many like me received no Welsh language tuition whilst at school (I learnt later on). What’s in no doubt however, is the need for Welsh speakers at all levels to advocate for the language in a positive and inclusive way. Sell the benefits. The vast majority of the audience is receptive.

As an English guy living in Wales, I'm not overly bothered about the normative names which are used for particular parts of the country. Eryri and Bannau Brycheiniog are the normative Welsh names for those particular areas. As those places are unambiguously within Wales, why should anyone object to their Welsh names being used?

Born in London, speak RP, married a Welshman, moved to Wales in the late 1980s, son went to Welsh school at age 4, the same year I started to learn Welsh. It ain't hard. Dyw e ddim yn anodd yn y marn i. Some years down the line, I speak adequately (does dim lot o amser i ymarfer / no time to really get stuck in) and write better than I speak. I live in the Valleys, not far from Cardiff. Friendliest people in the world. Not many Welsh speakers by yer. Lots of friends and family are first-language or fluent Welsh speakers. Love the language. Love the culture. Would never move away. I support my local community by being on the Community Council. I'm really used to chatting to people and to starting conversations. . . . so can someone tell me why, when I was at the Dafydd Iwan gig in Cardiff before Xmas, while in the queue for the Ladies, I started up a conversation with the next woman in the queue, who looked at me like I had two heads, grunted and looked away. Why? Well, I had spoken to her in English (RP). Then her friend came along and guess what? they spoke to each other in Welsh. A bit later at the same event, exactly the same thing happened with another person. "Funny", I thought. "Funny". People at a Welsh-language event usually have some knowledge of Welsh, so I didn't look like someone at an Air BnB in Pembs unloading a car of groceries bought in the Home Counties. If the truth be told and no word of a lie, it's not the first time it's happened.

According to "The Oldie" August 2024, " the trouble in Wales today is with all this political effort and passion to get everyone understanding Welsh ... there is simply no money left to invest in anything else". The author - a native of Bedwas - claims to love Welsh, but "can't stand" its "compulsory imposition" which, he says, drives talent away from Wales and causes Welsh students to fall behind in key subjects. The alleged loss of talent included a candidate for a consultancy post at the Heath hospital who walked out of her interview when asked whether she spoke Welsh.

I would suggest that peoplecare just scared of change and things they don't understand.

Quote: "For those of us who are Welsh but not fluent in the language, confronting our own shame and insecurity is just as important." Not sure I get this bit? I go back 2 generations and I have bilingual in the family then a few more generations, welsh only. I was part of a group that lost it (I understand the reasons). I have no shame or insecurity and accept it as the way things are and I welcome all welsh only signs and a drive to a greater speaking of my lost language (my as in it was there a few generations ago). Leaning again is on my roundtoit but it needs money, I would rather courses where I can learn in a group. Had some interesting interaction with ardent welsh speakers over the years.

I don't think this opinion is anything new, it's just been given a name. I've lost count of the number of times I've been 'congratulated' or 'condemned' by non-Welsh speaking compatriots when they hear me speaking Welsh to my kids in public. Support usually comes from those that are trying to learn, have recently lost it or are sending their kids/grandkids to 'Welsh' school. Negativity usually comes from those with little exposure or investment - including a number of primary school teachers who are affronted at being forced to teach this nonsense to their pupils and having to go on courses. Fair play, they're doing their bit by giving generations an abiding poor attitude towards the language. Da iawn.

Always fascinating to hear or similar experiences from elsewhere. So much of this is true in Scotland concerning Gaelic. The vitriol towards the language, even if any reference to it is conflated and not part of the original discussion, is powerful. Just look at the comments section on any Scotsman/Herald/BBC Scotland news story, and see how quickly someone blames or mentions Gaelic, even if the word doesn't appear in the article.

My great grandfather, Henry Parry, was made to wear the Welsh Not at the end of playtime by a bully, and was consequently punished. Many years later, as a respected businessman in Beaumaris, he was asked to go to the court house, where the quarterly assizes were taking place, to interpret for the accused, a monoglot Welsh speaker. Guess who? Karma in action

Both my Grandparents spoke WELSH only do not forget it was not only our native tongue it was history everything about Wales i read the newspapers and one of those tory supporting rags had a story about cuts to the Army and why Guards Regiments had not been touched anyway some comments that the English Regiments should not be touched and i quote THE COLONIEL REGIMENTS Welsh Scots and Irish Guards this is the mantality of a lot of English the same people who say Wales is not a COUNTRY but a Principality and say thats why our rugby stadium is called the Principality stadium which its not because its sponsored by the building society the English are an Ignorant and arrogant people we need out A S A P of the disunited kingdom

Dw i'n meddwl bod ti'n siaradwr Cymraeg os oes un person yn y byd ti'n siarad dim ond Cymraeg efo fo bob amser. C'mon James, dewisa rhywun yn dy gylch, boed plentyn tair oed neu beidio, a siarada dy Gymraeg efo fo!

Come to the Netherlands and tell that to the Dutch, after all they can all speak English too, so why would they bother speaking Dutch when so few people speak it worldwide? I'm sure you'll get a really warm welcome, they'll be astonished that they didn't work it out themselves, it being so obvious that their language is utterly pointless, they'll put up statues of you in all the major towns as a token of their respect, and as thanks for helping their benighted culture and sclerotic Dutch speaking economy... Obviously the clincher will be "If you do this you could be like Wales, instead of being some backward little Dutch speaking territory..." Thankfully the Dutch aren't that spineless or stupid, something that fortunately applies to most Welsh people as well...

I don't think it has that much to do with the language to be honest, I don't particularly care which of the two languages the signs and place names are in as it is the same difference - it is just information and I can read both. I think it is mostly that people do not want to be told what to do for the most part and that goes for monoglot Welsh folks and English folks living here. I mean you will get some incomers who despise the language or have a chip on their shoulder but I don't belive that number is as high as some would make out and it literally is just rebellion.

My Welsh learner freinds and I have been subjected to pretty regular verbal abuse in Chepstow when speaking, yes, the racism is part of life in most border towns but the reason we don't let it get to us is because we know it comes from fear and fragility. When someone describes speaking your own countries language as "woke" then you know exactly the angle they're coming from.

One reason for the fragility is that England is not a real nation. It's a temporary alliance, a coalition of the willing, formed to kick the Danes out. Since that threat has long gone it's time for the Heptarchy to return.

When I first moved to Wales over 25 years ago there were some Welsh speakers who wanted to try and belittle and shame me because of my accent. Born in London parents Celts. Some thought I'd struggle to say their name because it was Welsh. I didn't let the first bother me and surprised the second. I could even pronounce Llanelli properly. If folk were speaking Welsh in front of me then realised I didn't they would apologise and carry on in English. I told to carry on it's their first language. No-one has the right to say they can't speak their Mother tongue. I've never been able to get to grips with Welsh nor been around folk who could help me learn more. Some of the road signs are shocking though when they can't decide if you need a - or not. Anywhos folk who don't like others speaking Welsh in Wales just need reminding how they expect folk from abroad to speak English when they come over to the UK. Same thing.

Historical records show that the English have always held negative opinions about the non-English. Often, during periods of conflict the adversaries would be demonised as wanting to abolish the English language. Some of this comes from occupying part of an island, so after the Norman Conquest, the English rarely came into contact with other cultures, except when trying to conquer them. Hence, the statutes of Kilkenny. A thriving Welsh-speaking culture would not be a provincial backwater to the Londononocentric world - which would be an affront to the elite who comprise it.

Good article. I was embarrassed when I went on a twin town trip to Germany that I could speak our language. However I sent my children to Welsh schools with much success

I went to a MacDonalds in Worcester yesterday. The machine offered me the chance to order in Welsh. I did, it slowed me down a bit, but with a couple of educated guesses and few surprises at bits of English that still happened, I succeeded in ordering a McPlant Meal! Now I have to deal with the shame of eating at MacDonalds :-) But like the author I feel shame at not being able to converse in Welsh, partly through lack of confidence and fear of making a fool of myself - why make someone cope with my stumbling Welsh when I know they will understand my English? That said, I like to use short phrases where I can, especially when responding to more fluent friends

Most English people have little or no interest in what takes place in Wales whether it's the language or whether it's 20mph speed limits or other. These are decisions that need to be taken within Wales as it's those people affected. However expecting non Welsh speakers to pronounce Welsh names is a little optimistic to say the least. Most countries have a different name for other countries (or towns or cities within that country) than is used in that country itself. The French don't insist we say Paree instead of Paris. They wouldn't be so arrogant. Also the rights of non Welsh speakers should surely be respected. It appears sometimes as an example of the tail wagging the dog.

Very interesting article. I live in the South Wales Valleys which was heavily industrialised. My grandmother on was from a Welsh speaking family but sadly brought up without speaking a word of Welsh. I never understood this due to my non existent understanding of Welsh History . Later as an adult I learnt that my grandmother was brought up with the dreaded Welsh Not. She was ashamed of her Welshness and expressed it. Thankfully we've come a long way as a country from these injustices, but the damage has been done. We also have very little Welsh history being taught in schools if any at all. Only now taking it upon myself to learn the history of this great country of Cymru I feel a sense of pride for this land and its language.

Is there really a Welsh Language “debate” as the headline of this article suggests. Was the decision  to revert the name of Snowdonia National Park to Eryri “particularly contentious” and did it really cause an “outcry”? Is there perhaps a human tendency to project personal hang-ups onto other as some argue Freud did? The work of Leon Festinger in the 1950s on Cognitive Dissonance Theory does seems to have stood the test of time. Accordingly, a dissonance exits for a person who is Welsh but does not speak (or speak well enough) his or her or their national language. This dissonance must be resolved. This may take the form of personal excuses, or anger against the language itself and those who try to promote it. With widespread support among Welsh people and across the mainstream political spectrum for language restoration, the real issue is delivery on aspirations both personal and national. More needs to be done to optimize teaching-learning environments for different learning styles. While people do learn Welsh for a great many reasons, maybe it would motivate more students to make the effort to become confident Welsh speakers if there was more evidence of reward in terms of opportunities, salary and career progress.

Here is an idea from an 75yr old Englishman (Welsh great grandfather) learning welsh and enjoying it. The English struggle when they see Welsh notices ,wether it is on trains ,road sign etc . How about one or two words being spelt out phonetical ie: llwyfan. - swe van - platform Surely this will encourage somebody to attempt to learn the beautiful language. Please don't feel guilty about your language. Be proud.

Only a characteristic of the English in Wales, those settlers with a sense of entitlement. Never came across any objection by English people to Yr Wyddfa or Eryri in London or Manchester.

The article raises an important point about how some English speakers react when Welsh is used in public, often perceiving it as exclusionary or even hostile. But this issue isn’t just about the fragility of English speakers—it also highlights a challenge within the Welsh-speaking community itself: the need to foster a more supportive environment for learners and speakers of all levels. Many years ago, my wife and I joined a Welsh Male Voice Choir tour of Northern Spain. During a visit to San Sebastian, we struggled to communicate with shopkeepers and restaurant staff in English. On a whim, we tried speaking Welsh. While this led to puzzled looks, the locals offered other languages, including English. When we admitted we spoke only “a little bit,” they responded confidently in what they assumed was poor English—their willingness to embrace imperfection made all the difference. We had meaningful conversations despite the odd grammatical error or misused words. Back on the bus, we realised we were the only ones who’d managed to find anyone to speak even a little English. This experience taught me the importance of creating a welcoming atmosphere for anyone attempting a language, no matter their level. Sadly, Welsh learners—or even fluent speakers—are often met with unnecessary criticism over minor mistakes in Wales. As someone who posts bilingually, I’ve noticed that errors in English are rarely commented on, yet a typo in Welsh often invites ridicule. If we want the Welsh language to thrive, we must adopt a more inclusive mindset. This includes being more patient and understanding with those learning Welsh and those not speaking it. Instead of pointing out mistakes, we should celebrate every effort to use the language. After all, no language survives without people using it—imperfectly or not. By fostering confidence in Welsh speakers and learners, we can challenge the fragility of English and the fragility of the Welsh language itself.

Since by your own admittance you don't understand the outrage and feel you can only chalk it up to emotional fragility I will do my best to explain it to you from an English perspective; after all I'm sure this article isn't an excuse to take a cheap shot at the English, right? There's two elements to it. Firstly, there is genuine outrage over the way English speakers are being marginalised in Wales. From communities refusing to allow non-Welsh speakers to move in to Welsh-only schools often being better funded than their English counterparts, there is genuinely harmful discrimination going on in Wales right now. This despite the fact that Welsh speakers are still a relatively small minority within Wales. Secondly, there is the element of cultural erosion. If you are like the majority of Welsh people and you aren't fluent in Welsh, you are increasingly seeing your homes, your landmarks and your government being rebranded in a language you don't understand. But even if you don't live in Wales, Welsh culture is part of British culture. Snowdonia is a key part of British geography, and renaming that is a form of cultural erasure, especially as the linguistic differences between Welsh and English mean many people can't even pronounce the new terms. People don't like being told that they're wrong even at the best of times, and being told that the facts and names of your own country are wrong by groups who don't even represent the actual locals (again, most Welsh people don't speak Welsh) is particularly obnoxious. But perhaps more than any of that, it's the fact that English people aren't stupid. We get what's going on. I jested at the start of this comment about the framing of this article, but the reality is the Welshification lobby are constantly putting out messages that belittle, otherise and sometimes express outright hostility to the English. English people see that, and frankly they draw the not entirely unfounded conclusion that a lot of this drive to push the Welsh language is an attempt to separate Welsh and English people, and they view English people as the enemy. That's your right, of course, but don't be surprised if English people aren't lining up to support a movement that treats them and their culture as the enemy.

Is it hard for English-speaking adult Welsh descendants to learn the language and heritage?