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NationCymru A news service by the people of Wales, for the people of Wales.

Opinion

Dear Welsh politics: Political point scoring after a terrorist attack isn't a good look

By NationCymru
Picture: National Assembly (CC BY 2.0)

 

Ifan Morgan Jones

Leanne Wood has been criticised by the Conservatives and UKIP for a Twitter comment calling ISIS ‘far-right’ following yesterday’s terrible attacks in Barcelona that left 14 dead.

Ofnadwy / terrible. Is this more far right terrorism? My thoughts are with all those affected.https://t.co/REkCs6HNgy

— LeanneWood (@LeanneWood) August 17, 2017

Leanne Wood did do something wrong here, which was to speculate on the nature of a terrorist attack before the police confirmed the details.

Doing so always leaves you open to accusations of attempting to make political capital out of a tragic event. As a seasoned politician, she should know better.

For that, she may want to apologise, although it’s unlikely that it was her intent.

But the Conservative and UKIP’s criticism go beyond what would seem reasonable in such circumstances:

  • The Leader of the Welsh Conservatives,  Andrew RT Davies, said it was "unbelievable" that Wood had said that it might be linked to a far-right group.
  • AM Janet Finch-Saunders suggested that Leanne Wood should resign as Plaid Cymru party leader.
  • UKIP called the tweet a ‘smear’.

First of all, it’s unclear why UKIP and the Conservatives have a problem with Leanne Wood calling ISIS ‘far-right’.

Surely they don’t consider themselves to be far-right, so who exactly is being slandered by this association?

Being a conservative and far-right are two very different things, like being a socialist and being Stalin.

Calling ISIS ‘far-right’ would seem to be a pretty accurate description. Here are some of the things they believe in:

  • They believe in the suppression of any groups that disagree with their vision
  • They revere powerful military leaders
  • They glorify violence
  • They are ultraconservative in their attitudes to people’s rights
  • They are ultraconservative in attempting to recreate a society dating from hundreds of years ago
  • They want to upend the established order and create a new society in its place

They are fascists. Their ideology isn’t that different from the Nazis, although they would consider themselves to be on opposing sides.

And since fascists are usually called ‘far-right’ I’m not sure why Leanne Wood’s comments were especially controversial.

It's not clear what the point of this sustained criticism of Leanne Wood is, beyond the kind of political point scoring the Plaid Cymru leader is being accused of.

This is, of course, all going on in the aftermath of a terrorist attack that has killed 14 and left many more injured.

Perhaps all involved should step back and think about the bigger picture.


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90 comments

Angharad

I don't think she mentioned ISIS? This was more likely a reference to the far right attack in Charlottesville. Whilst speculation by public figures is probably not a good idea in such circumstances, in the heat of the moment it is difficult not to get caught up in the emotion of the situation. The public expectation is for a swift response from politicians; little time to consult on the right form of words. You really have to wonder why those who protested did so. If they considered it a personal attack, they should be examining themselves.

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kim erswell

Leanne, asks the question - "Is this more right wing terrorism?" No, Leanne, like all recent terrorist attacks in Europe it was carried out by Muslim Islamic terrorists.I mean that isn't hard to reason. Like the National socialist Nazis they lean more towards the left.

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Rob

Don't embarrass yourself, mate.

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A Gog

Oh dear Kim, go and have a lie down, as you obviously haven't a clue.

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Dafis

Islamo-fascists - ISIS - AQ - et al. Same thing different gang names. For once, if Leanne actually said it in so many words, it's O.K by me. As for Tories and UKIP, as "right wing" as they are willing to own up to, but harbouring some nasty smelly extreme deviants within their folds. By the way, to revert to critical mode, all this Right wing / Left wing nonsense is pretty outdated distinction. There is much more to defining extremism than a singular linear model. Try 3D and you'll find that extreme left and extreme right are cheek by jowl somewhere, and looking at some of the nut jobs spouting from those extremities there is often a distinct likeness.

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leigh richards

how is your friend tommy robinson these days kim? By the way your twitter feed makes very interesting reading :)

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A Gog

Leanne asked a question!!

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glasiad

Using the exact same label [far right] to describe the terrorists in Barcelona as she does her political opponents in the Assembly, Leanne used real people's tragedy for political point scoring. It was both sloppy and dishonest. So what's wrong with using acts of Islamic terrorism to score points back home, you ask? How low can you go? I ask. This whole fiasco pretty much sums up current politicians in their bubble world, preferring slagging matches and name calling to open, honest and rational debate about the issues that need to be debated. UKIP's and the Conservatives "we're so deeply offended" BS doesn't do them any credit either.

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Angharad

What if she'd said "fascist" or "nazi" in place of "far right"? Would that have made it acceptable? To most people, these are the same thing. And if she calls "UKIP" far right, I'm with her. I'd happily extend it to "fascist", at least for some of them.

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glasiad

You are clearly part of the problem "preferring slagging matches and name calling to open, honest and rational debate" ...

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In reply to glasiad

Angharad

"Name calling" is calling people things in order to insult them. For example, "idiot" or "stupid". Believing someone is fascist and/or far right, and saying so, is not name calling. It is simply using the adjectives one thinks most appropriate. In a debate, this will give the opponent a clear view of the person's standpoint, and provide a basis for discussion. I believe there are large fascist elements in UKIP. That's really not name calling. That's a statement of opinion.

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Radek

Not all far righters are terrorists!! She never accused Farage of being a terrorist and he shouldn't feel accused. You can commit terrorism for the sake of different causes. Just as you can espouse the most heinous views but never commit terrorism in their name.

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Ioan Gealy

I'm a member of Plaid and a fervent Welsh nationalist but Leanne Wood makes my skin crawl! She is the queen of the loony left and needs to get out of politics pronto!

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Capitalist and Welshnash

Im on the centre-right in the political spectrum and have no qualms with what Leanne Wood has said. People who do might want to consider how far-right their views actually are.

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Aled Jedley

I voted for Leanne six years ago and I've always got on well with her but her tweet is completely unacceptable. She has described the Tory government as far-right, she has described UKIP as far-right and she has, perplexingly, described a Hard Brexit as far-right. None of which is true. But to equate the terrorists in Barcelona with the far-right is is unacceptable. Go now, Leanne. Adam Price has my vote - in fact anyone but McEvoy would be better than loony lefty Leanne.

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Angharad

Personally, I'd go along with 2½ of the 3 you mention.

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Eli Parry

You voted for her six years ago and yet you still use terms like 'loony lefty', as if she had just randomly espoused views of social justice at some random point since then. Maybe you should think and research before voting, mate.

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Aled Jedley

I'd known Leanne for years before she stood for the leader. As a Welsh nationalist and long-time Plaid activist I preferred her to DET and Elin Jones. Her descent into the dead end of identity politics hasnt't come as a surprise to me BUT feminist, gender and racial politics are far more prominent now than they were six years ago as the Cultural Marxists have successfully infiltrated the highest levels of "western" politics, media and business. Leanne must feel validated and powerful - just read her replies on her Facebook page. Here is the dictionary.com definition of fascism: "1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism." You see the bit that says "forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism"? That is what the SJW/Identiatarians/Progressives aim to do with their suppression of free speech using their mantra of "hate speech". Leanne, emboldened by the mainstreaming of "progressive" politics has crossed into dangerous territory. Two men have been successfully prosecuted - one of them imprisoned - for saying nasty things about Leanne. She is in the vanguard of the New Fascism: intolerant of people who share different views, labelling anyone with a non-socialist political outlook as "far right", using the apparatus of the state to crush and erase dissent while all the time believing that they occupy the moral high ground. Twitter and Facebook are the equivalent of the Nuremberg rallies - hive-mind echo chambers in which the self-righteous glory in their unshakeable dogma. Saying all this, she is still a trillion percent better than McEvoy.

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In reply to Aled Jedley

Martin

Isn't "Cultural Marxist" a right-wing conspiracy theory term? You're swallowing nonsense peddled by people who don't have your interests at heart. If you really know her, contact her civilly. Ask for her views. She would probably respond.

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In reply to Martin

sibrydionmawr

I'd be interested to hear why Leanne Wood is a 'trillion percent' better than Neil McEvoy. He may not be the most diplomatic of politicians, but he is just what Plaid needs, someone who is prepared to hold Labour to account.

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In reply to Aled Jedley

leigh richards

"Two men have been successfully prosecuted – one of them imprisoned – for saying nasty things about Leanne. She is in the vanguard of the New Fascism" Nasty things??? For goodness sake one of them threatened to rape her and the other threatened to shoot her. These were absolutely despicable crimes which you should unreservedly condemn - yet you not only attack the victim of these crimes you also bizarrely accuse her of being a 'fascist' for seeking protection from the law from such horrific online abuse.

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In reply to leigh richards

Aled Jedley

"Sticks and stones may break me bones but names will never hurt me." I've had people threatening to kill me in real life - bullies, muggers, robbers, hooligans. I've been physically attacked many times. Thus is what happens to men - they are considerably more likely to be murdered or assaulted than are women. And guess what? No one has ever been convicted of assaulting me, despite five separate police investigations into various assaults. The police have different priorities now - like policing social media to root out political incorrectness. Leanne has called the Tories, UKIP and Brexit far-right. To now call ISIS far right is to equate these Muslim butchers with two major UK political parties. Can't you see what is wrong - and very dangerous and subversive - about that? Oh and by the way Soros, Common Purpose and Cultural Marxism are all real actual things. Of course Plaid is full of CP graduates and agents of Brussels - why not go to Ty Gwynfor and ask how many people have been on a CP course or to Brussels on official business?

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In reply to leigh richards

sibrydionmawr

@ Aled Jedley - if by CP you mean Communist Party, then you seem a tad out of touch. I don't know if you caught it, but communism pretty much collapsed in the early 90s, and though there are still a few 'communist' parties in the UK, none of them is exactly big, indeed, they are miniscule and hardly influential and more likely to attend a Plaid Cymru course than the other way around. Communist parties in the UK are impoverished. Most former communists moved on and became members of left of centre parties, including Plaid Cymru, and in general, communist parties seem to be little removed from the centre left - take a look at the Communist Party of the USA, it's mainstream centre left in it's policies. True, there are a few dinosaurs around, who even in the bad old days when 'communism' held some sway, were referred to by more progressive socialist/communist supporters as 'tankies' post Prague Spring oppression of Dubcek and supporters. Supporters of these kinds of parties seem even more anachronistic now than they did even nearly 50 years ago. If you have a fear of 'Cultural Marxism' then I suggest you stop reading American White Supremacist websites, as they peddle a lot of BS about more or less everything. I'm guessing that you, yourself are of an extreme far-right standpoint, as you seem to suggest that the EU is some kind of extreme left-wing conspiracy, an idea as risisble as it is deluded. The EU is in fact more of a capitalist cartel. What Leanne Wood tweeted may have been a tad insensitive and badly timed, but it was hardly the crime of the century, and reporting of this, whilst perhaps not fake news, is certainly 'silly season' type' type reporting.

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In reply to leigh richards

leigh richards

“"Sticks and stones may break me bones but names will never hurt me" writes aled jedley. Er being threatened with rape isn't being called a 'name' - just ask any of the thousands of women who are subject to such terrifying threats every year. Your attempt to trivialize such a serious crime is sickening.

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In reply to leigh richards

Aled Jedley

By CP I mean Common Purpose. Of course Cultural Marxusm is real, it is as real as Crtitical Theory or the Frankfurt School. I've got two social science degrees so the assertion that I picked it up from a website is laughable. I'm not left wing or tight wing - the terms are ridiculous. I believe in live and let live but I disagree with the constant promotion of LGBT+ lifestyles, white guilt and multiculturalism. I'm a member of Plaid who wants Wales to be independent of the UK and EU. The intellectual pygmies braying their sheep line mantra of "hate speech" are both chilling andxamusingin their blinkered view of the world from their all-white communities. Go to a few gay clubs or live in the ghetto. Get out more.

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Radek

Not all far righters are terrorists!! She never accused Farage of being a terrorist and he shouldn’t feel accused. You can commit terrorism for the sake of different causes. Just as you can espouse the most heinous views but never commit terrorism in their name.

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Martin

Describing IS as far-right is fine. It's what they are. But it's a red rag to a bull for people who have otherwise been labelled far-right. The kind of thing that has been done to Welsh nationalists for years.

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David Martyn Bevan

Isis ideology is Fascist, Alt right ideology is Fascist. Fascist terrorism is "far right terrorism". It's not hard to work out. Nazis lean more towards the left? What a joke!

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Al

The tweet was a complete embarassment. A period of due reflection would surely be a good thing for a leader of a political party after such an atrocity: why on earth do they have to reach for the twitter immediately? It's just insane. Leanne's tweet is shocking in its basic lack of understanding of the threat now facing us in the West. It's just a knee-jerk left wing response in order to make cheap political points. ISIL are no more far-right as they are far-left. . They are completely beyond the usual political labels: they are a medieval death cult who want to destroy the west, left, right, centre: the whole shebang. End of. When will people wake up and understand this? As for the response of the Tories/UKIP: well, I have no truck with them at all, but Leanne has repeatedly referred to them as far-Right- so you can understand their anger with this.

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Communist & WelshNash

It appears that since Rhun ap Iorwerth's chess move on the Eisteddfod field that all in opposition to Leanne Wood's leadership are looking for an opportunity to undermine her. Somebody, anybody tweeting is not really news unless the person tweeting is a high profile politician. Donald Trump shouldn't be on Twitter but he is. Would it be fair to call him far right after his inability to condemn the white supremacists in Charlottesville? With the Left and the Right now sabre rattling world events are warming up to a major conflict between these two polarities. ISIL will then be able to mop up who and what is left.

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Capitalist and Welshnash

I think Leanne Wood has been an excellent political party leader. She could do with being more of a centrist than a pure-crusading socialist, but I can understand the socio-economic and political environment of the Rhondda in which such an economically confrontational viewpoint would be formed. I do not think this is the time to step down; she should not allow words of slander by British Nationalists determine the course of her party. If anything, she should focus on re-strengthening her position, stabilising her immediate circle, and uniting people in a non-confrontational manner, so that Plaid may move towards a leadership contest with no easily attacked cracks. I hope Leanne will consider, too, that she has done a good job whilst pressing her farther-Left economic ideology forward, but that Brexit is such a sea-change that Plaid must also begin changing to adapt to the new century in which we find ourselves. Good luck Leanne Wood, you've held out a long time already.

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Royston Jones

Leanne Wood was shamelessly using Barcelona to keep up the attacks on Trump and Brexit, those obsessions of an embittered and frustrated Left

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A Gog

So we know it's not the Left, but please advise who are doing these atrocities Royston? I'm keen on your response, but please don't say ISIS.

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glasiad

Political Islam has more in common with the far left than the far right - in that it makes claims to having a Truth to which everyone must accept - or face the consequences of being a dissenter (usually not good).

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In reply to glasiad

Capitalist and Welshnash

Am interesting and insightful take on how the economic Left may often take shape in a self-righteous and puritanically sanctimonious form, Glasiad.

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Royston Jones

Do you want to have another go at the question?

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D. Maitland

So says an obsessed, embittered and frustrated right winger who has been shamelessly retweeting the hateful posts of European neo nazis. It was too late to delete it Jac o' the North.

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Jac o' the North

I have no intention of deleting any tweet. Are you referring to what I dealt with in my latest post? Are you @Wales4Europe? http://jacothenorth.net/blog/plaid-cymru-escapist-politics/

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Royston Jones

I take it you're referring to the single retweet of the words of Viktor Orban, for which I will not apologise to you or anyone else.

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Gareth

There were people lying dead on a pavement while she was tweeting this. How on earth did she think it was a good idea?

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JD

She needs to go. This was crass, insensitive and tasteless. Hwyl fawr Leanne!

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Red Dragon Jim

The Kurds call themselves anti-fascists because they are up against these type of people. It's hate. Hate of gay people. Hate of Jews. Hate of women. Hate of democracy. Leanne Wood is right to point that out.

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glasiad

This article on Spiked magazine helps explain Leanne's response to Islamic terrorism. Rarely has the hypocrisy of the West’s ostensible liberals and leftists been as violently exposed as it has been this week ... http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/from-charlottesville-to-barcelona/

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Thomas Moseley

What a load of rubbishy comments! No wonder the nationalist cause goes nowhere in Wales: at the slightest provocation we fight amongst ourselves. Leanne Wood's comment was harmless and undeserving of the harsh criticisms levelled at it. The only criticism I have is for her use of the meaningless terms far left and far right; but who cares? She has been an excellent, energetic leader of Plaid Cymru which like most political parties is an alliance of persons with differing political views. I do not agree with everything she advocates, and neither would she agree with every opinion I hold; but to undermine her for simply stating a viewpoint on an atrocity which I have no doubt all of us abhor does no one any good. She has nothing important to apologize for.

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Trailorboy

I sense there's a new political game in town and it's not looking very friendly.

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Angharad

I quite agree. Except, of course, I wish you'd excluded my comments from your first sentence! :) (and I still think the terms "left" and "right" have some merit but I think I know where you're coming from)

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CambroUiDunlainge

Very dismissive about others views... maybe we could even label what you've said as intolerant... see where I'm going with this?

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Jonesy

Leanne should get off twitter and facebook some of her pronouncements are dead embarrassing for a party leader. Like other politicians she thinks she has to emote, rage or condemn issues that are current/ on trend without taking time out to think and which are nothing to do with them as they usually live 1000s of miles of away. It's just jumping on some bandwagon. Yep I can go online and say "my heart is with the people of Sierra Leone tonight " what bloody good will that do them? Anyway obvs not trendy to empathise with SL as not seen anythins on Social media with those poor people. Also Equating the far right with Isis was really stupid in this case. And why do people bang on about right or left as if it defines people's politics or campaigns, it too simplistic and idiotic to do so. Leanne has not got the intellectual capacity to be leader, or to work out why tweeting this glib nonsense was a bad idea

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Tame Frontiersman

Good Ofnadwy/terrible. My thoughts are with all those affected (Sometimes less is more). Better Ofnadwy/terrible. Mis pensamientos están con los afectados Best Ofnadwy/terrible. Els meus pensaments estan amb els afectats

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Cymru Rydd

What if we had a nationalist leader in Wales , who instead of some pointless emoting said:" we have got to get to grips with this Islamist menace which is threatening all of us".? "Our christian values and heritage in the West is under attack and there is no point beating about the bush any more. The moslem community have got to do more to weed out this blind intolerance in their midst, and we must do much more to ensure that their young men being led astray like this are afforded a more hopeful and positive vision for their future. This has to be a two-way process of education and engagement." No, of course it's so much easier to go along with the liberal hogwash agenda of not confronting the truth and mouthing platitudes which mean absolutely nothing. And of course, fellow Jeremy Corby has just done the same by sacking sarah champion for daring to mention the huge elephant in the room- the systematic abuse of young white girls at the hands of muslim men in scores of English cities. The scale of this scandal which has been hushed up in a number of Labour controlled areas because of the racism card could well bring corbyn down. It truly is as bad as that.

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Angharad

If we had such nationalist leader in Wales, I'd be looking for another party. Having been personally at the wrong end of extremes in Christianity in the past, we have no moral right to be talking in such ways.

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Aled Jedley

So are you in Plaid because you are a Welsh nationalist or because you are a "progressive"? It is "the Party of Wales" - there to protect the Welsh language and to push for Welsh independence. It doesn't exist to protect or promote homosexuality, wimmin's rights, gender rights or race relations. Labour and the LibDems can do all those things along with many "modern" Tories. If the "Party of Wales" is there to represent, err, the people of Wales then Leanne should be pushing for a smooth Brexit. Unfortunately, Plaid is riddled with agents of Brussels and Common Purpose graduates. The Plaid "progressives'" loyalty is to George Soros, Juncker, Tusk and Merkel. We are truly f**ked.

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In reply to Aled Jedley

henferch

Best comments ever. Thank god someone sees the bigger picture.

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In reply to Aled Jedley

Martin

More "common purpose" and "Soros" nonsense. These are alt-right conspiracies. You are almost certainly a person of intelligence I'd get along with in real life, but this stuff is a con trick.

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In reply to Martin

sibrydionmawr

Hmmm, 'almost certainly' gives room to wriggle!

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In reply to Aled Jedley

Paul

I want to live in a tolerant Wales. One that promotes gay rights, women's rights and trans rights. I hope people like you aren't leading the independence cause. Leanne was nieve - hope she accepts that and moves on.

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In reply to Aled Jedley

leigh richards

Um it may come as a huge shock to you but there are gay people in wales, there are women in wales and wales is home to people from many different nationalities and cultures - and being the left of center progressive party plaid is it rightly seeks to promote and enhance the rights of women and gay people and to defend people from racist attacks by neo nazi scumbags. Oh and it seeks to protect the welsh language and secure independence for wales too.Thankfully nobody shares your bigoted vision of wales save for the neo fascists of the welsh defence league and the south wales national front.

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In reply to Aled Jedley

Eli Parry

Plaid Cymru exists to represent the people of Wales, and to advance the cause of the people of Wales. "Wimmin", as you derogatorily write, or women, as it should be correctly spelled, constitute over 50% of the people of Wales. I would therefore that embracing women's rights should be key to Plaid Cymru's aims, if we are to take all of our society towards independence. Plaid Cymru does not promote homosexuality - it is impossible to 'promote' homosexuality. You are born just as you are. Plaid Cymru accepts it as something completely normal, and fights for LGBT people's rights to exist as normal human beings. Once again, as a party wishing to represent the majority, it needs to do this, as people like you who seem to believe that LGBT people are abnormal thankfully and rightfully dwell at the margins of society. If you want to establish an extreme socially conservative and right wing nationalist party, along with people like Royston Jones, please, please do so. You will soon come to realise that your views have little traction beyond the comments sections of blogs.

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Trailorboy

really sad to see what's going on here. There is such a thing as a far right and there is such a thing as fascism and i don't want an independent Wales that embraces those sorts of views. I would prefer to succumb to being Anglicised

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Cymru Rydd

But the whole nub of the argument here is this attempt to equate ISIS with the far-right which is just complete nonsense and an insult to our intelligence. It's so obvious that this tweet sought to establish a political equivalence between the events in Charlottesville and the massacre in Barcelona. Of course, the far-right elements in charlotesville were completely odious and repugnant in their outright hatred for jews and black people. But these idiots do have a political agenda of sorts, whatever one may think of that agenda, i.e some form of white homeland in the south. Apparently, they want to promote this cause democratically. But ISIS are not a political far-right entity in the same way at all. They are not seeking a democratic mandate in any shape or form. They want to impose an Islamic Caliphate on the West which is a religious dictatorship based on sharia law. Not much elbow room there for homosexuals, women, children ,free speech, democracy or even music if it comes to that. Oh, and of course there won't be any space for christians there either. All based on their Holy Book. The one which commands all Muslims to persecute, cheat, exploit and kill the infidel wherever he or she is to be found. The spineless refusal of our mainstream politicians to face up to the magnitude of this evil, and rely instead on mealy mouthed platitudes is truly shocking. It just adds insult to injury to see the leader of Plaid Cymru joining in in such a thoughtless way. Leanne's summer reading list should perhaps read "Heretic"- a book written by a brave muslim woman about Islam and the dangers it poses to the West. She says that Islam needs a reformation similar to the protestant reformation instigated by martin luther. The West can help that process along. But it needs to stop pandering to Islam.

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leigh richards

fascists abhor democracy, indiscriminately murder people, oppress women and hate gay people - isis abhors democracy,indiscriminately murders people, oppresses women and hates gay people. leanne's point was well made! Also important to be aware - as you seem a bit confused on the matter - that isis are in no way representative of islam. To think that would be like thinking the kkk are representative of christians.

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Aled Jedley

Leanne - and Remainers - abhor democracy. They want to reverse the referendum result. Many gay people abhor straight people. Many dark skinned people abhor white skinned people. Many Muslims abhor Christians. Many "progressives" abhor people that aren't "progressive" and want their voices shut down.

Reply

In reply to Aled Jedley

Red Dragon Jim

It's not that people want your voice shut down. They just think you are wrong, or disagree with you.

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In reply to Aled Jedley

sibrydionmawr

You seem to have an extremely weird take on democracy. Remainers do not abhor democracy, as they realise that democracy is a process, not an event. People should have a right to change their mind when they realise they may have made a wrong decision previously. It would be more accurate to suggest that it's those who support Brexit are anti-democracy, in that they persistently try to undermine any attempt to democratise the Brexit process, fearing that another democratic vote would reverse the decision to leave the EU. Whilst I abhor people who are not progressive, but I would oppose any attempt to censor their voices - their comments usually have great entertainment value, and I wouldn't want to miss out on a good laugh, or an opportunity to wonder about the stupidity of some people. On a more serious note, I'm a great believer in allowing people enough rope, so that they hang themselves with their own words. If someone makes a contraversial comment in full public view, at least we know who they are, where they are, and have an opportunity to counter them, and watch them.

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In reply to sibrydionmawr

CambroUiDunlainge

The same could be said for any vote or referendum as far as changing their mind goes. But claiming enough people have changed their mind to warrant another referendum is where it starts to turn into a bit of a dubious statement. As is the statement that all Remainers have the same view on democracy, and to suggest all Brexiteer's are anti-democracy. I'm sure it doesn't go that deep with a lot of people on either side. Now those leading both sides... of course the losing side wants another vote (as the SNP wanted another referendum) and of course the winning side does not... thats just people for you. If it was reversed and we were staying in we know Farage would be itching to go again and again until he got the result he wanted. If we did have another referendum and it went the other way... Leave would want another one, Remain would not - and this argument about democracy and people changing their minds would be coming out of UKIP instead. I don't consider any of that being about political alignment or whatever... its just people being people. As for progressiveness... and this is more food for thought rather than critique... not voicing support for something does not necessarily mean you are against it - we of course live in an apathetic society so this is quite common. So not really sure condemning and not wanting to "miss out on a good laugh is strictly legit. Though I've got to be honest... over the years I've seen quite a few spats in CiF on the Graun between people with differing progressive movements who cannot respect each others causes. My critique may seem to diminish that but I do not view such people as progressive. Respect begets respect - and in criticising other causes they behave in a way they are supposedly trying to fight against. But people are only able to relate to their own experiences - and when you cannot relate sometimes it is better to keep your mouth shut and simply give respect of your fellow wo/man.

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In reply to Aled Jedley

leigh richards

The poster hiding behind the pseudonym 'aled jedley' ('allegedly' geddit - yeah lame i know even by the dismal standards of far right trolls) makes a series of ludicrous assertions, for which of course there isn't a scintilla of corroborating evidence. But to judge by his contributions to this threat it wouldn't be unreasonable to assert he abhors gay people, he abhors muslims, he abhors what he calls 'dark skinned people' and - to judge by his comments elsewhere on this thread - he doesn't care much for women either :(

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In reply to leigh richards

sibrydionmawr

I wonder what he really thinks of Welsh people too? He's really quite sad. We should perhaps pity him.

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Lyn Thomas

I think I smell a media bandwagon, to dis Plaid and get Leanne. We should not fall for it. Isis is a deeply reactionary organisation, and by any reasonable analysis that puts it on the far right. If that is a lable that UKIP and sections of the Tory party want to embrace let them, but don't attack someone for calling out what something is. As it was Barcelona is hosting a major gay event this week and it may have been premature to ask the question but it was a reasonable one, it wasn't immediately apparent that this was an ISIS inspired attack.

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Cymru Rydd

Leigh: can I respectfully suggest that you also look up this book: "Heretic" by Ayyan Hirsi Ali? She categorically states that ISIS ARE representative of Islam! That is the essence of the problem here. This is a Muslim woman who has been brave enough to honestly confront the cancer at the heart of Islam: this unthinking devotion to a prophet Mohammed, a self-confessed pedophile, warlord and mass murderer. She says that the Koran has to be drastically revised. This ridiculous liberal idea that "Oh we can't say that because it would hurt the sensibilities of Muslim communities" just infantilises this particular community since it basically presumes that they aren't mature enough to deal with the truth! What patronising nonsense..... Surely all communities, wherever they may be, should be honest enough to take a deep look at their own failings and shortcomings and seek to address those shortcomings?

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NationCymru

I'm rather uncomfortable with the view that because a historical figure associated with a religion or movement was, by today's standards, a bad person, that condemns the adherents of that movement forever. The Old Testament is full of people and prophets who act in God's name but are, by today's standards, violent or warmongering. Owain Glyndwr was violent and warmongering but continues to be held up by Welsh nationalists as an icon. In the same way as we are inspired by the past but set a modernised moral code for ourselves in the present, so too can Muslims. We don't revise the Bible because we no longer believe that gay people should be stoned or that keeping slaves is OK., or that children should be killed by bears because they mocked a prophet's bald patch. We recognise them as documents written in another time and apply our own modern interpretation to them. The alternative option is to erase history because they do not fit our present view of right and wrong.

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Harri Roberts

You are correct - but it goes deeper doesnt it? Winston Churchill as well as Stalin was a mass murderer.... Mao Tse Tung allowed millions of ordinary people to perish in starvation in pursuit of his ideology... and LBJ in Viet Nam had Yankee bombers gassing innocent civilians.... By what standards do we judge? ISIS in Syria - or the Russians and Americans bombing there? FACT: Innocent people are dying and suffering because of terrorists and governments - its plain WRONG and we must get our voices heard to warn governments that they will fall unless they stop the murder - and similarly allow our counter-terrorist organisations to act to stop terrorists even if it does curtail some of our hard-won freedoms.

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daffy2012

I don't think however that tens of thousand of people in Wales pray to Owain Glyndwr and go and worship him in their churches and chapels on Sundays. He doesn't provide them with a moral code with which to live their day to day lives. Of course, his bravery, cunning and tenacity against all odds has been an inspiration to generations of nationalists. You are correct in saying that the Old Testament is full of violence. One of it's basic rules is 'An eye for an eye. A tooth for a tooth'. However, the New Testament has been described as a kind of upgrade with Jesus telling his followers to 'offer the other cheek' and to 'Love your neighbour'. I'm not sure if your comparison of a religious leader with millions of followers with a Welsh historical leader embroiled in a battle for survival against a much more powerful and ruthless adversary is a good one to make. I also think you'll find that in some Muslim societies gay people are put to death as are women deemed to have committed adultery. Sometimes you have to face and confront the facts for what they are.

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Jonesy

Just a historical point here, but up until tudor times most males would be classified as paedos by today,s standards, whatever culture they came from, as girls (of high birth) were married off as early as infancy. So I don't think Mo was different to anybody else at that time,just like our welsh princes.

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Martin

It's just her (Ayan Hirsi ali) opinion though. There is a settled, extant Muslim community in Wales that holds a different view.

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CapM

Whatever anyone's take on Leanne Wood's tweet is, it has generated coverage in the UK press and media for her, Plaid Cymru and by association the aim of an independent Cymru. Publicity that wouldn't exist but for that tweet. The observation of some might be that it's the "wrong" sort of publicity. But the reality is that we're never likely to get the "right" sort of publicity from a press and media that is united in it's opposition to our independence from England.

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Harri Roberts

Wise comment - especially about the press...

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Harri Roberts

A very good critique by Ifan Morgan Jones "Leanne Wood has been criticised by the Conservatives and UKIP for a Twitter comment calling ISIS ‘far-right’ following yesterday’s terrible attacks in Barcelona that left 14 dead. Ofnadwy / terrible. Is this more far right terrorism? My thoughts are with all those affected.https://t.co/REkCs6HNgy — LeanneWood (@LeanneWood) August 17, 2017" other than I dont believe she did anything wrong - the political point-scoring is entirely by the Tories and UKIP (caught a raw nerve did she???) - they seem very protective of the "far right" ... are they desperate to wear that label? Ifan's points about ISIS are very valid - they are fascist - is Andrew RT Davies defending them? What a disgrace!

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Red Dragon Jim

It's a bandwagon. The Mike Parker and Arfon Jones treatment.

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han

She should apologise for speculating at the time without knowing the facts. Very irresponsible. I don't have much of a problem with her calling ISIS far right, i see her point. however it is overly simplifying things. I don't think the left right axis is particularly helpful in describing these terrorists. Does she think there are far left terrorists? Was stalin far right or far left? Etc etc.

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Red Dragon Jim

Far-left terror was present in Italy and Germany decades ago.

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Cymru Rydd

A quick theological point to contest this argument that the Old Testament is also full of murderous violence. The Old Testament is superceded by Jesus: so Jesus is the final and definitive version of God for Christians. There's no need to "revise" the Bible- as Jesus Christ has already revised it! Now compare that with Islam: where the devotees still worship Mohammed uncritically despite his murderous lifestyle. That's why the Koran needs to be revised urgently. Mug up on any number of recent social surveys in the uk which display an ambivalence, and that's putting it kindly, amongst an alarming number of Muslims towards Islamic violence.

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Welsh and muslim

New testament is full of peace and wisdom. Muslim do not worship prophet muhammad PBUH. They submit to Allah only. Koran is not read uncritically but is interpreted by each person. Has it got violence? Yes. Does that make all muslims violent? No. Are muslims ambivalent? No. If we don't condemn in the exact style others want, that doesn't mean we are ambivalent or support evil.

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Red Dragon Jim

The Muslim victims of IS don't need to revise anything. The majority of IS' victims are Muslim (so far). The majority of boots on the ground fighting them are Muslim. Some are atheist or Christian too. They're not thinking about revising the Quran. They're thinking about stopping these fascists. We're in the same boat and they hate us too.

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Welsh and muslim

She made a right mess up. She gave the right more reason to tar all muslim as ISIS. She accidently called muslims nazis or islam fascist and made herself look impulsive and opportunist. As another thought, the ignorance of islam being shown is staggering and it's all because of this kind of hysteria. Want to know about ISIS? Ask a muslim scholar or imam but be prepared to listen and not try and make it fit your own politics. It's complicated and she has tried to simplify it. She had good intentions but it's not helpful.

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Lyn Thomas

Correction Muslims do not worship Mohammed.

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Cymru Rydd

As a point of interest: here are the 4 amendments that Muslim Author Ayan Hirsi Ali suggests as part of the much needed Islamic Reformation: 1. All Muslim clerics need to forego the status of the Quran as the last and immutable word of God and the infallibilty of Muhammed as the last divinely inspired messenger. 2.They need to clearly move away from the overwhelming emphasis on the afterlife over the here and now. (Why do you think that so many young Muslim men are so willing to sacrifice themselves in these modern attacks in the West)? 3.Sharia law has to be clearly subordinate to the laws of the nation-states where Muslims live 4. They need to disavow completely the notion of Jihad as a literal call to arms against non-muslims and those muslims they consider as apostates of heretics.

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Welsh and muslim

Cymru Rydd you are more or less saying muslims must stop being muslims and then they will be acceptable in wales. Shocking.

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Cymru Rydd

Welsh and Muslim: your statement is a complete red herring. The 4 amendments are not my sentiments:they have been made by an award-winning female Muslim. Would you argue against them?

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Martin

I'd imagine yes, he/she would. Number 1 would mean you are no longer a Muslim according to their faith.

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sibrydionmawr

No, not Muslim as she no longer claims to be Muslim, and hasn't done so since 2002.

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Leanne Wood was shamelessly using Barcelona to keep up the attacks on Trump and Brexit, those obsessions of an embittered and frustrated Left

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