Brexit has awoken the Welsh independence movement

The 20:20 fringe was the start of a debate on how to create a road map for Wales. Some of the alleged "hype" before hand was from elements who wanted to sow division for their own internal games. They got nothing from our fringe on that score and I'm glad. Sovereignty is something I want to hear of every Plaid politician talking about, constantly. For future reference, people will be able to look back and see where this really started. Underwhelming? Gawn ni weld.

'Disunity has been the curse of the Welsh national movement going back to medieval times'. Disunity actually has been the curse of 'Wales' from Medieval times. More so with the emergence of the Labour Party poisoning peoples minds against anything culturally Welsh, especially the language. Now with the possible Boundary Changes going to seemingly produce a Tory majority in Westminster. All of a sudden the Labour Party seems to be quietly assuming the Independence mantle and jumping on to Plaid Cymru's waggon. Who are they really looking out for, Wales and its people or themselves and their survival in power somewhere. Because it will only be Wales left for them. They have lost England to the Tories and Scotland to the SNP.

An interesting post from aled job and he's right about brexit impacting upon the welsh national movement - but it needs to be stressed that the brexit vote doesnt in any way lessen the legitimacy of wales right to self determination. Wales is still a nation with the inalienable right to manage its own affairs should its people choose to exercise that right. My concern about the proposed "Independent Wales in Britain" is that it isnt independence at all - i presume for example it would mean we would still be expected to bow and scrape to a representative of the rotten house of windsor and be willing to see young welsh people sent off to die in future illegal british wars? I was on the remain side during last years referendum but the brexit vote doesnt mean we have to accept anything less than full self government and the right enjoy the same degree of political independence exercised by every other self governing nation in the world - among them the rights to determine our own relationship with institutions like the EU and to take our place at the the United Nations alongside all the worlds other self governing nations.That's what independence means - i'm afraid anything less is a cop out.

Catalonia shows the limitations of devolution as they had there, in that the central power can unilaterally take back devolved powers. I believe it is only a "convention"/"gentleman's agreement" that the UK parliament doesn't overrule devolved legislatures on devolved matters.

And I thought that the Brexiteers were either: A. Rabid, right wing, British Tory/DUP Colonial Empire-loyal extremists; B. Backward looking - "wasn't GB great in the 1950s?" - old fogeys; C. The under-educated, tabloid-consuming, underclass. How does progressive Welsh Nationialism fit into this?

I was pleased to see an article published on this website that distanced itself from the usual Global/UK/Plaid Cymru/Establishment view that leaving the EU is a disaster. The referendum result does seem to have jolted democratic debate back to life, if nothing else. I am of the opinion that there is no such thing as too much democracy. And democracy can be messy. Hence the statement "Disunity has been the curse of the Welsh national movement going back to medieval times." could actually be an indication that our nation is more democratic in nature than other 'unified' nations and states. Diversity of opinion, debates and disagreements lies at the very heart of the democratic process. It need not be feared but celebrated. It is our strength as well as our weakness. There continues to be a big buzz about Catalonia and its bid for independence. Considering the democratic drive for greater autonomy and self-determination, that is understandable. However there are some differences between Catalonia and Wales we should note. The historical, cultural and linguistic weight of Wales' case for independence is far greater than Catalonia's. So how come the independence movement in Catalonia comparatively vibrant and effective? The answer, I believe, lies in economics. Catalonia is one of the wealthiest regions in the Iberian peninsula. It has everything to protect and gain from greater autonomy, little to lose. Wales on the other hand remains one of the poorer regions of the British Isles. With that comes a sense of impotence and dependence. The key to galvanizing a potent and popular independence movement in Wales is economics. With prosperity comes confidence. The key to unlock the doors of prosperity is the money system. While we remain dependent on bank-fabricated IOU's (97% of the UK money supply) our natural wealth will continue to be drained. We will continue to struggle to make ends meet, lack confidence as a nation, and stay a dependent backwaters of the UK. For decades Welsh nationalists have been claiming that independence is a precondition for prosperity. Have we been getting that formula backwards? I believe we have. Catalonia shows that prosperity is a precondition for independence, not vice versa. If we want to drive the independence project forward in Wales we need fix our economy. When we prosper, independence will be a no-brainer, as they say. Creating a prosperous Wales is not a difficult or impossible task - when we understand and remove the blocks to prosperity. I'm currently working on a project to show people how the economic system really works, why remain in debt and poor, and what we need to do to turn it around in our favour. Whether these ideas gain traction or not may in the long run determine the fate of our nation. Still 'under construction', but you can check it out: WSC dot WALES

Hmm, Being a Welsh man, although living in England now, spent 50/50 of my life in Wales and England. But Im Welsh!! My concerns are, what does Wales Export? (Similarly, what does England Export?) Why would Wales want independence? Could Wales really manage independently of the rest of the UK? I am a firm remain er with regards to the EU vote. I can see the benefits of EU funding that has been spent in Wales, and before anyone says, buy we pay £350,000,000 a week, If we did not pay that, how much do you really thing the British gov would spend it in Wales? Then is that why you want independence? but that makes no sense, as the majority of tax collected is from London, Wales alone would probably not raise enough tax to fund itself as an independent country. Farming subsidies.. who is going to pay for them? £5 pint of milk anyone? £15 loaf of bread? 70% basic rate tax.... There are far more things to consider than just being able to say we are independent.... AS much as people did not like the EU, it has kept Civil war out of Europe, But now the cracks are beginning to appear, Catalonia,... Wales,,,, Northern Ireland, Greece... How long before all hell breaks out? OK, I have not got the answers, but asking for independence without really having a plan for if you get it, is just Brexit all over again... The word MESS comes to mind.

Why not use the word "Self rule" instead of independence by the way? There is no such thing as 100% true state independence in 2017, even North Korea is pressured somewhat by the actions of China and Russia........ ......self rule in a connected caring world has a nice idealist ring to it

Yes Cymru did not have a view, position on Brexit. It still doesn't as they are split on Brexit.

"Independence in Britain" outside of the EU is not my view. I am a Remainer. And support for an independent Wales increases when it is tied to Remaining in the EU. As it does when it is tied to stopping a Conservative government ruling over Wales. But if Brexit does finally happen, I am not going to say "you've turned your back on me!" I can see that independence outside the EU would be better than UK rule outsise the EU. I would be mature at that point and accept a new approach. Let us see how this one pans out.

Our obligations to our country never cease but with our lives. - John Adams

This Plaid attempt at damning Neil McEvoy with faint praise will not work. I was there, and the fringe event was anything but underwhelming. It was positive, and clearly a starting point for a discussion. As for it being a 'barely-veiled' pitch for the leadership, what does the poor guy have to do? He's categorically said he doesn't want to be leadership; repeatedly reasserts that his future is with Plaid; constantly encourages people to join; and is nowhere near as shifty-looking as Rhun ap Iorwerth or Simon Thomas. Which of those two, I wonder, is behind the constant suggestions to the media that Leanne's leadership is under threat? But, hey, let's not the facts get in the way of prejudice, huh? And, Ifan, what the hell is this bit doing in the News section? You need to be more careful with your box-ticking. Apart from the attempts at undermining McEvoy, I generally agree that Brexit has breathed new life into the independence movement. The biggest problem the independence movement faces is a benign status quo. The more chaos, the better. Wales is dying slowly, by a thousand cuts. We now have the opportunity to change that.

Aled says there's a meeting in Aberystwyth this weekend, but it has in fact been changed to an invitation-only meeting on the 18th. Explained here http://jacothenorth.net/blog/new-party-fresh-start-4-back-track/

If we continue to use the argument - Wales isn't strong enough to succeed independently - we'll never be independent. So we must be brave ! However, we need the security of being in the Single Market to do so successfully. The EU may not be perfect but for the prosperity and security of all Europeans it needs to succeed and Wales should be helping to reform it for the better.

I'm grateful to Ifan for publishing my blog- although it was slightly curtailed because of space considerations.. Just an additional point or two from the section that was left out to flesh out my arguments: I'm convinced that the Welsh National Movement over the years has not really addressed the point that for most people in Wales, connections with the rest of mainland Britain are more important than links to Europe. The narrative we should be relating to the people of Wales post Brexit is: Look this gives us the opportunity be an independent nation, running our country according to our traditional Welsh values of language, land and people, as well as maintaining voluntary cultural and social links to the rest of mainland Britain. A Wyn-Wyn situations as we say in Welsh. We have also underestimated how the idea of "Prydain" resonates on a deeper historic and cultural level here in Wales, with Brythoneg, the precursor of Welsh, once spoken all over the mainland. The Welsh poetic tradition over many many centuries has always simultaneously bemoaned the loss of Prydain, and prophesized its eventual return to Welsh hands. This is graphically illustrated best of all in the Welsh name for England- "Lloegr"- which quite literally means "the lost lands". And the epic "Armes Prydain" poem composed in the 10th century called on the Welsh people to unite under the leadership of Cadwaladr in the north and Cynan in the south to resist Saxonic advances to preserve the idea of Prydain. Y Mab Darogan himself, Owain Glyndwr, also paid homage to this ancient Welsh tradition with his 1405 Tripartite Agreement with Edmund Mortimer and Thomas Percy- since the extended Wales of that agreement reached as far as Six Oaks( 10 miles from Birmingham)- with Wales in effect sharing Prydain with two other kingdoms. It's not beyond the realms of possibility either that an Independent Wales in Britain could encourage many people beyond the present borders of Wales to gain a deeper understanding of the historic importance of Welsh on this mainland.

Good article. I was a Remainer but the EU has been exposed in Catalunya as a club for the big boys. And that aside we need to accept that there was a vote to leave, and we need to let nature take it's course. If things get worse for us in Wales post-Brexit the only thing we will have left to blame is the Union; outside of that we need to forge our own course in the world on the basis of strategic alliances which could as much be within the British Isles as with other smaller or larger nations across Europe and beyond. Bring it on!

The EU referendum enabled British nationalism to flex it's muscles and it did so in Cymru also. Many people who identify themselves as Welsh, notably in post industrial south Wales used their Leave votes to express their Britishness. As a nation I think this meant that we took a backward step away from independence and the already huge task of promoting and convincing has been made more difficult. Whatever the outcome of the Brexit negotiations, (even calling the whole thing off) I think we can expect to see a stepping up of project UK from all the usual suspects that will eclipse what we saw leading up to the Scottish independence referendum. "...a golden opportunity in the wake of Brexit. Let’s not waste it." is a sentiment those on the left and right of British nationalist politics have also identified and are, in all likelihood, already making preparations for. Any downside to Brexit experienced by the Scots can be blamed on England and used to further the case for Scottish independence. That strategy is not available to us. This will be the environment in which a pro-independence movement in Cymru will have to operate in.

EU as club for the big boys Fact- 14 of the 28 States have populations of under 10m people. 7 are smaller than Wales. EU is anti breakaway states - lets not be naive. It is not going to come out fighting to break up the UK or Spain or the Federal Republic of Germany, is it now? What matters is, when the Catalunyas or Scotlands have broken away, as self-governing states, will the individual countries of the EU then recognise them? Well it happened with the Czech/Slovak velvet divorce. Slovenia was fine. They are not going to slam the door in the face of Scotland, Catalunya (or Wales). Wales will have to do the hard work itself, and with no help from Mummy. Disunited Wales Come on, we all know this is true. The English, who learned "divide and rule" from the the Roman Empire, are masters of this. And we in Wales fall for it every time. As in: "if he gains I lose" (No you might both gain, the sum being more than the parts). "I can only defend what I have (chapel, rugby club, job) by keeping it small enough for me to control." As Plaid Cymru is doing now. (No, because small is comfortable, but vulnerable. But you do need vision and generosity and a thick skin to grow a true movement). Disunity is not strength. Diversity might well be. But if we are talking about Plaid Cymru, they will not do diversity. I have seen no sign at all that the existing Leader of Plaid understands true leadership at all. Leadership is not about the power to exclude, to ostracise. That is mere bullying. Leadership is about empathising with people totally unlike yourself, drawing our their abilities, and drawing disparate elements together and, ultimately, not fighting to keep any leadership position. The leadership is given to you, not yours to grab and hold on to. And its not just Leanne Wood that lacks these qualities. None of the names actually in the frame, Price, ap Iorwerth or Thomas have given me evidence that they can lead - rather the opposite unfortunately. McEvoy says he does not want to lead. He is quite right to say this. He has to deal with all kinds of dirt being dumped on him by his ex-partners and their cronies. The Leader does not stop this abuse, she eggs it on, is part of it. But when McEvoy has clarified his ideas and built his platform, some years away I'd say, he does have the fire, and the moral backbone to lead. Oh yes! And fight Wales' corner in the EU or out. PS - it'll it be in!