As in Scotland, we need to have a discussion about the values of an independent Wales

Wise words from Liz. Her vision of a independent Wales underpinned by a commitment to equality, social justice, fairness and democracy is one that's likely to resonate with many people in Wales and boost support for the Welsh Indy movement

Liz, you know from your visits to SNP Conferences and AUOB Marches the word 'ETHICAL' does not exist in the English/Brit Nat lexicon. The meagre number of yoons protesting were probably members of what we refer to as the 'Bowler Hat Brigade' AKA the Orange Order or OD.

Every generation wants the best for its children. I want mine to be healthier, wealthier and happier than I am and certainly they are a lot better off than my family when I was a child. We must be welcoming to all who can contribute socially and economically irrespective of sex, race, sexual orientation etc. The 'economic cake' of a nation can be divided up in so many ways, the key is to ensure it's big enough and certainly a lot bigger than now in Wales. Airy fairy waffle won't cut it for the vast majority of the population. We need to be pragmatic if Wales is going to turn a profit to invest in its future for the benefit of Welsh generations to come. So what are the specific economic policies on tax, currency, national debt, political system etc that will ensure Wales is more like Switzerland than the Gaza strip compared to it's much bigger neighbour? All contributors on 'inequality, values' etc welcome to reply.

Discussion with who? Who is advocating that an independent Wales should not have the values of social justice, equality, fairness and democracy?

what happened to planetary responsibility in the values? or is that a subset of another value?

There is only 1 Welsh Revolution, and it is the Cymraeg Restoration. Cynnau canhwyllau yng Nghastell Caergwrle.

I broadly agree with the two immediately previous comments, and especially with Arwyn Lloyd's perceptive observation that 'at the moment 'it' - i.e. the campaign for independence - is 'a movement dominated by ideas from the social left and Y Fro cultural conservatives'. I keep being drawn back to the history of that first part of the UK to achieve independence, the 26 counties which ultimately became the Republic of Ireland. Ireland long shared Wales's history of being very considerably a 'British backwater' whose resources, such as they were, had been routinely siphoned away to benefit of other parts of the British Isles deemed to be more significant. So far, so similar. But the difference in Ireland was the bitter historical memory of the centuries of penal laws and disabilities directed against the majority who persistently clung to 'the old religion'. 'An Irish papist is not suffered even to breathe', opined the Lord Chancellor of Ireland in the 1730s, 'save by the leave of the Crown and Parliament'. In the light of that history, and of the memories associated with it, the bulk of Irish folk seem to have backed independence even though the immediate economic prospects, for nation and family alike, looked - and for half a century indeed proved to be - pretty dire. There are distant bitter memories in Wales too, both economic and religious; but they don't - at least to me - seem quite so profound in the psyche of most Welsh people in our day and age. And in contemporary Wales, unlike 1920s Ireland, religion's no longer a significant issue. So yes, I believe the independence thing does pivot on 'would such a leap, such a big change in the status quo - even if the status quo in Wales doesn't impress - be likely to improve life and prospects here for me and my family and the folk who live around me'. And until people start to believe that it just might, 'indy curiosity' will remain a special interest of the culture vultures inside and outside 'Y Fro' and of a minority of left inclined political anoraks.

Completely agree there. Feel Plaid's Commission on Independence needs to be run Independently from the party as well. Plaid needs to open itself up not wall itself off.

So.... how much do you pay for Prince Phillip in the can out there????

"All Men are created equal ....with certain unalienable rights", "Liberté, égalité, fraternité!". No doubt Wales could come up with equally pretentious stuff, but to what ends- to join the many nations of the world who ain't walking their talk? Wales needs action plans not gesture politics, pragmatism not ideology. Independence is not buying wholesale into whatever values and political correctness are globally trending, it's valuing and building on the nation's unique culture and heritage.

Wales has to decide how it can increase its GDP or at least have a plan as to how to do it. Wales will need inward investment - but into what areas of the country and into which industries? Surely not into the existing Steel industry which mainly produces low added value steels that any third world country can produce at about a third of the price.

I have a lot of respect for Liz Saville, but she's wrong on this one. As some of the other posters have said, placing some nominal 'Values' as a prerequisite for an Independent Wales is a big no-no. Especially as such values sound suspiciously similar to Plaid's virtous lefty agenda. These will only alienate two key audiences, small 'c' conservatives in both Welsh speaking Wales and Non-Welsh speaking Wales, plus the substantial audience in 'British Wales' who could also baulk at such a pre-set agenda. Politicians should butt out-allow the independence movement to continue to be the 'big tent' phenomena it is. You just have to trust the people of Wales to make the choice about the kind of Wales they want to live in, post-indy. Liz: it's not values you should be focusing on here, but the valleys! 45% of the people of Wales live there, so that area is the key to Welsh independence. Valleys folk are unlikely to respond favourably to some grandiose political grandstanding.

Another good article by our Woman at Westminster. Clearly one of the major benefits of independence in legislation is the speed of action. Wales could shift gear on electrifying all our railways. It could also put solar panels over every out of town shopping mall and cover supermarket car parks, the developers need to pay their share of the shift to green energy and need a little legal push. A separate Welsh tax base means companies acting in Wales would pay VAT and other taxes in Cardiff HQs and not in London something which has always made us look poorer than we are. Welsh water in national hands will add income to a welsh treasury. None of these things will happens under the dead hand of Whitehall. Economically Wales receives less spending on all state core services such as civil service, army and research funds. These are concentrated in SE England. Such Anglo-subsidy by the “poor” Welsh of the English core state functions will end under a Welsh government. Even a Wales in NATO would be cheaper ie 2% of Welsh GDP not our share of the UK bill. Nation Cymru readers can add more ... those who have read Gwynfors little book on the new free nations of Europe can see the end of Empire is possible, and now point to a booming Irish tiger and the huge GPD per capita of former “coal and steel” Luxemburg, or remote Iceland, Finland and not just dream of the day, but grasp it. Malta, Cyprus and Eire all kept the pound for years after independence without a bleat from the old goats in Westminster. Gibraltar, Man and the Channel Isles all keep the pound, despite being semi independent self-governing states. Wales can too until we decide otherwise. An independent Wales could aim for student fees at the Scottish levels for home students. Currently HEFCW is serving an England and Wales system, and failed to increase Welsh medium Higher Education, instead bleeding us of our young people and physically exchanging our population by tens of thousands of young adults every year. This process of unwelshing Wales. (about 50,000 per year ie ½ million per decade) can be brought to more sustainable levels. Wales deserves better.

Values transcend national boundaries; so it might be better to find something else to use as the foundations for an independent Wales. Politicians and values have an unhappy history in recent years viz. David Cameron, Gordon Brown, Alex Salmond and Jeremy Corbyn. The idea that there is a one size fits all box of Welsh values sounds almost totalitarian dividing people into those who accept these values and the 'others'. A good way of judging a politician's phrase is to ask the opposite: how many people in our country are actually against "the values of social justice, equality, fairness and democracy." In nearly every case people disagree over the means or the amount, rather than the concepts, especially when two of them are often mutually incompatible. Meanwhile there are also many definitions of each of those values. Of course, we can think of some notable exceptions, but most of these are reflections of our own biases. Perhaps we should amend the title of this article to: As in Scotland, we do need to have a discussion about an independent Wales. But not one involving just the usual voices - the converted - please.

An even more important discussion will be one on the practicalities of how an independent Wales would smoothly break away from the Union with the rest of Britain.