10 great liberals everyone in Wales should know about

Will there be a list of Liberal women too?

Interesting note on Thomas Gee.

I welcome the educating article .... some of these liberals were great advocates against aristocracy and for land reform. For that I must salute them ... however there were some unsavory links between Lloyd George and Hitler: https://lloydgeorgesociety.org.uk/en/article/2008/0130361/lloyd-george-and-hitler It is a shame Lloyd George also turned his back on the Welsh movement simply because his ego was hurt after Newport's merchants laughed at him in a meeting. *Nick Clegg does not deserve to be on there ... - Yes, I did actually lend him a vote to get voting reform which I admire - but he was originally part of the young conservatives who ultimately backstabbed the students ... something I can never forgive him for watching my cousins 60k debt grow.

Labelling Hywel Dda as a liberal is pushing the boat too far.......It is far too back in history to label people then as "liberal/communist/socialist/ fascist" in the modern sense. Maybe Hywel was a proto-liberal ... but his other policies of making sure all starving people were fed, could also be described as state socialist or community communism (remember communism is anti-state though)

Thought-provoking piece. A few observations:- 1. A similar article could have been written 150 years by a Welsh equivalent of the great English historian William Stubbs, who drew a straight line from the Teutonic (English) invasions in the 5th century and the Tudors a millennium later -- and by extension, the British Empire and Victorian constitution of his own time! I find it very difficult to connect the thinking and values of Hywel Dda with Michael D. Jones and Nick Clegg, on a common path towards a free, democratic and sovereign Wales. 2. Whilst there have been individuals in Brit liberalism who have been supportive of our national movement, culture and institutions, how far can they be seem as part of the Brit liberal mainstream, rather than in the peripheral eddies and counter-currents? 3. I have enjoyed compiling an alternative list of British liberals whom everyone in Wales should know for different reasons. Palmerston. Joseph Chamberlain. Alfred Milner. Churchill. Lloyd George 3.0 (of the 1930s). Bertrand Russell (the state should issue colour-coded "procreation tickets" to prevent the gene pool of the elite being diluted by inferior human beings). Jeremy Thorpe ... 4. It would be interesting to know Nick Clegg's views on the policies of the Spanish state in Catalunya -- and on the proper relationship between non-state nations (like the Welsh) and the EU.

What a load of rubbish! Have you ever been to Glynebwy? Have you ever been to Dudley in Birmingham? Go and spit in the face of people, you insult the poor! And you are trying to say Wales is not SOCIALIST! Who flew the red flag first, and who got us our ASSEMBLY SENEDD! No one cares about the 19th century and your Victorian Empire. The British Empire, part of Wales?!?!? Hywel Dda was a socialist, we all know it. And who are you, I don't see any Liberals in Wales? And a Liberal Plaid Cymru, are you drinking absinthe? This is a socialist country, we vote Labour. This is a socialist country, maybe you've not heard of Aneirin Bevan?!? This is a socialist country, even our nationalists are socialists and side with Labour not to get on people's bad sides! Liberal? This is a socialist country! SOCIALIST! Nick Clegg courageous? He jumped in bed with Cameron. What courage is that? It's a betrayal!

@Y Ferch ... "This is a socialist country" ??? Just because we may will it does not make it so. Fundamentally, and irrespective of the will of the Welsh people, we are a Tory country. All the key levers controlling economic and fiscal policy, and our natural resources, are ruled by a Tory government in Westminster. And the Labour Party are complicit in that by their response to the Silk Commission recommendations, which would indeed have seen significantly more power flowing to a Labour government in Wales.

Thanks an interesting piece which was worth reading. It is unfortunate that the present day liberals have given up on liberalism, had they not, they might have had a future. There is a need for a new party in Wales, something to push for Wales' interests, her Independence, and eschewing the authoritarian, dependency model of Labour and 'Labour Lite' (Plaid Cymru)

I'll read through in more detail and perhaps comment later, but first: huge kudos for quoting Rosaria Butterfield, who is something of a heroine of mine.

The list started off well

Thanks for this. But... 1) Where are the women? 2) Gwynoro Jones?!?!? Yes he won 2 elections, but come on this must be a wind up?

Ten men and the only woman gets a single solitary sentence. Are there no female liberals in existence or do you just not think them important?

OK, I'm going to address the gender imbalance by naming another Liberal who had a huge positive effect on Wales, and was very popular here, despite not being Welsh. If Paddy Ashdown and Nick Clegg deserve to be on the list, then she does far more so. Margaret Thatcher. Yes, that's right; I know that she stood for the Conservative Party; but the Conservative Party before her and after her has borne so little resemblance to her that it should be obvious that she was never really one of them. It's not just me who thinks so either - the same point has been argued here and here as well. She was classic Gladstonian Liberal, far more faithful to that tradition than the Liberal Democrats are today. Indeed, as an evangelical Christian myself, I'd assert that she was almost certainly the only British Prime Minister since Gladstone to have shared the same faith (for evidence of that see here for example). After all, look at her actions when in power. The overriding theme of everything she did was to set people free - giving them the freedom to buy their own homes, to own shares in the companies that they worked for and to defy the undemocratic power of the trades unions that had so blighted British life for the ten years before she was elected. In Wales, she made the Conservative Party hugely more popular than they were before or since, gave more recognition to the Welsh Language than any previous Prime Minister had done, and turbocharged the Welsh Development Agency which did far more to promote high-quality employment in Wales than the bungling Welsh Government has ever managed since abolishing it. I've argued elsewhere on this site (though I wish there was the facility to put a hyperlink to a comment) that her ideas were far more congruent with the Plaid Cymru ideal of 'Community Socialism' than the actual Socialism of Leanna Wood, which is why I personally found it very easy to shift my allegiance, quite seamlessly, from Mrs. Thatcher's Conservative Party to Dafydd Wigley's Plaid Cymru in the early 1990s. I've been floundering around looking for a new political home ever since. On the other hand, I see nothing remotely Liberal about Nick Clegg, nor about the Liberal Democrat party as they are today.

A lovely post and an interesting one. I'm not overly versed in deep liberal political history, but I see divergence in policies of those of left leaning political parties. Its not helped our overall politics to see Liberalism decline. This Party has undoubtedly contributed to the rich political history of Wales and Britain. I suspect the FPTP voting and much discredited as a pure form of selecting MPs, continues to play a part in limiting it's past success and continues to do so. But as the saying goes ' do the Maths'. I do hope a better, fairer voting practice is installed that gives greater recognition of spread of votes, as one living in a safe Labour seat. We need a greater democratisation of our politics. I have regard for Liberal support of devolution, but am not sure, or aware of its depth, but these votes will be needed if we are serious of increasing our width of interest in self determination. But forever in my favour will be the leadership of the late Charles Kennedy a Scottish Liberal Democrat its leader from 1999 to 2006. Under his leadership saw a steep rise in support for Liberalism in the face of fierce competition for votes and his leadership in opposition to the Iraq war. That along with Plaid Cymru will be the endearing memories of how right they were. Charles was a personality and leader. He was greatly missed and ended the prospect of greater liberal influence true to its origin. As for the crucial vote to establish the Assembly then the Labour vote in support will rank as one of the most defining moment in recent Welsh Labour history that ranks alongside its formation of its party. A realisation of what the Party originaly proposed under the banner vote for Kier Hardie for home rule and democratic government. Where did it all go wrong! Consensus politics of a broad church, neither left nor right, in Wales will be the voice of Wales and nothing else will do.

So you start by saying you cannot interpret the politics of historical figures through a modern lense. There enough... And then you call Hywell DDa a liberal, examine his actions through a modern lense, and basically go 'no its fine if i do it' so liberalism.txt. This point was the least terrible in the whole article. Like, you are literally telling us to respect Clegg. To look up to him. Austerity has murdered countless thousands of our people, and we're to kiss the shoes of the man who enabled this? Suck his dick because it could have been worse? Are you joking? He's not even Welsh? What would be the point of liberalism anyways if not cement into place the existing social structures and power relations that leave us chronically impoverished for another generation? How would liberalism help us defeat the liberal ideals that allow us to rot? True liberty is the freedom to eat, not the freedom to starve.

Dynion I gyd. Blessings mae'r menywod?

I did smile at the post from Wrexhamian that included " the Senedd is in the position of a child that is allowed to go to the shop and not allowed to cross the road" . I'm in a reflective mood to both its lovely analogy, better than a large dissertation, and it's deeper meaning . I did wonder Wrexhamian, if you ever thought that in desperation, and in sight of , yet frustrated, to seek either a Zebra crossing (old vernacular) might be green man now, or a footbridge that could solve this dilemma. I think we have tried but the wicked Belisha becon safety officer, sends us back. And the footbridge collapses, made of sticks as we cross. Just as we start the climb. But there must be a solution, in the end, of dreams that make you float, and the kiss of the princess to wake her up. I was watching a tree cutters this morning scaling a huge oak tree and lobbing branches of good size. I did wonder then that this was like your analogy. We need to keep cutting away the dead or unsafe branches that have grown for many years that block our path, make it impossible to navigate, to be skilled and brave, to see how we cross the road to the shop, and feast on its freedoms, with or without safety ropes. Perhaps the child will grow into an adult, to follow the green cross code, of looking right, left and right again, then scoot to the other side. I do hope.

Hywel Dda a liberal - duw a'n helpo. The concept didn't exist at that time. He was a moderately successful warlord who had some sort of deal with Alfred a king of Wessex. Perhaps/probably hywel set up a commission (to use a modern term) to unify the laws used in Cymru (and possibly elsewhere in Britain - Galanas had entered medieval Scots law). Hywel may have been learned or enlightened. It was the laws that reflected our values at the time that can be seen as liberal in our age. Modern liberals are human rights deniers: nic leggu voted with the fascist tori partei to deny poor people the right to marry someone they might choose should the spouse come from the third world - the right to marry who you choose is a basic human right enshrined in the universal declaration on human rights - not that angwin and his 'liberal' frennz would gno anything about that - Nazi filth!

Is there a difference between Liberal principles of its origin and latter day politicians who break the code.

Two points 1) Most of us identify with values that are loosely Liberal. The problem we all face is finding a political movement which not only embodies such values but also - more important - can give us practical political power. Yes this might not mean getting a majority, but it does require a truly significant political presence. In my own case, when I lived in England I could and did realistically vote Liberal. Still just about worth doing so in England. But not in Wales. They blew it over the Rainbow Coalition to keep Labour out of power in the Bay, and tuition fees, and deservedly collapsed. Wales needs an effective party with Liberal values. Which are not the same as politically correct values. But it would take a realignment of all the parties to get it. 2) The constant "where are the women?" is very tedious. This is 2018. Women have not faced discrimination for decades and decades. In any article with a historical theme going back to Hywel Dda you are not going to get many women stars. With some rare exceptions they did not take part in politics, they were raising children and running families. Now of course they have complete freedom of action and they do not raise children or run families in the same way. What is interesting is that, despite decades, we still don't have many impressive women political leaders, as was promised. But then the men are thin on the ground too......