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Senedd in uproar as First Minister asked to describe what a woman is

By Emily Price
Leader of the Welsh Conservatives Darren Millar - Image: Senedd TV

Emily Price 

The leader of the Senedd Conservatives has been accused of creating divisions and engaging in culture wars after he asked the First Minister to describe the "definition of a woman".

The question from Welsh Tory leader Darren Millar came during FMQs on Tuesday (March 11) as the Senedd celebrated International Women's Day which took place at the weekend.

Mr Millar said his Tory colleague Laura Anne Jones had tabled a similar question several months ago but hadn't received an answer.

His line of questioning was greeted by groans from the Chamber as Baroness Eluned Morgan hit back saying that on a day to mark the celebration of women, she would would not engage in a "culture war".

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Rights

The leader of the Senedd Tories accused the FM of deliberately choosing not to answer the question.

He said: "It's important that everybody understands that a woman is an adult human female so that we can protect women’s rights and ensure that women here in Wales flourish ."

Mr Millar called for sporting bodies in receipt of Welsh Government funds to be required to commit to "sex based categories" so that "women are not required to compete against biological males".

The First Minister said the leader of the opposition hadn't learned anything since the general election which saw all of Wales' Conservative MPs wiped out.

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Wipe out

She said: "What people care about is the economy, they care about the NHS, they care about housing, they care about education, they care about connecting communities.

"These are all the things that I am absolutely focused on and I am not playing games with you or culture wars because actually the people Wales are not interested in that."

Heckling could be heard in the Chamber as Mr Millar responded saying he was a "pro-women's rights potential First Minister".

A backbencher could be heard telling Mr Millar to, "look around you, you're on your own with this one."

The Welsh Tory leader pressed the First Minister again saying: "We know that violence against women and girls has been soaring since the pandemic, and we know that most of the perpetrators are male.

"So, do you agree with me, First Minister, that the Welsh Government has a duty to ensure that all women in Wales should have access to safe single-sex spaces, including public toilets, leisure centre changing rooms, women’s refuges and hospital wards?"

Through the noise of further calling out from MSs, Eluned Morgan said she would "focus on the things that women really care about".

Efforts

She said: "What they care about is feeling safe, is making sure that they have their rights, that their children are able to flourish, and that’s why this is a Government that, for years, has been focused on the things that really matter to women.

"The fact that we’ve given huge increases in childcare, for example, which you voted against, and you voted against, by the way.

"It’s really important for us to recognise that those are the things that people care about."

Mr Millar's gender query comes several weeks after his predecessor, Andrew RT Davies, attempted to table a similar question which read: "How many genders does the Welsh Government recognise?".

The question was thrown out by the tabling office because it failed to comply with Senedd guidelines which state that a question should not out forward a particular point of view.

Commenting after FMQs, Mr Millar said the First Minister’s "inability to define what a woman is" undermines efforts to safeguard and advance women’s rights in Wales.

He said: "Women’s sports are in urgent need of action to protect fairness and encourage participation. Biological males who have gone through puberty have clear physical advantages, which is why sex-based categories in sport are essential to maintain fairness and integrity.

"This is about fairness and equality, Wales should be an inclusive society but that doesn’t mean we should ride roughshod over the hard-won rights of women and girls in Wales."

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68 comments

Jeff

Jebus. The state of the Tory party at the moment in the UK. Bought and paid for. From Kemi through to Trumps fluffer in Wales, trump and musk work their hate through useful idiots.

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Ali Morris

What has that got to do with the article? This is a serious issue that impacts on women and girls.

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Ali Morris

It's not a culture war to be able to say what a woman is, especially on International WOMEN'S Day. This is crucial if women are to have equal rights and a right to single sex spaces. The Senedd has on many occasions (esp via Mark Drakeford) said out loud that 'Trans women are women, trans men are men and non binary identities are valid'. So clearly they DON'T know what a woman is. I applaud Darran Millar for his courage to face this head on. The Senedd has failed women and girls, simple as. It wants Wales to be the safest country for women and girls but can't even define what a woman is.

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Llyn

Ali what is your definition of a woman?

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Ali Morris

Adult Human Female. It's not my definition it's the scientific definition. XX Chromosomes.

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In reply to Ali Morris

Llyn

So would Imane Khelf and Caster Semenya who have all women parts be classed as women or men in by your definition?

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In reply to Llyn

Kurt Morgan

I couldn't have put it better myself.

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In reply to Ali Morris

Kurt Morgan

So, you define a woman as an Adult Human Female with a two letter XX Chromosome only? If that is the case then by definition you must therefore accept that there are more than 2 genders then because 1 in 600 men has a 3 letter XYX Chromosome. How do you define a man with a 3 letter Chromosome? For that matter how do you define a person who has believed that all their life they are female because they have feminine features and a vagina, but internal testes? For the record these persons have an officially recognised condition called Feminine Testicular Syndrome and while some of them have are as I previously described, many have ambiguous external sex organs. This is the problem with your definition lifted from GCSE Biology, it is contradicted by established biological facts and when you seek to promote simplistic biology you deny many people's existence. Try understanding that the world isn't as simplistic as you make it out to be and blaming Trans women for the crimes of primarily white British heterosexual men is disgusting. Men don't need to put on dresses and lipstick to attack women, they usually do it to their own partners and that is also an established fact.

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In reply to Ali Morris

Marisol Evans

No that's not the scientific description. That is Posie Parker's definition of a woman created to sell tshirts. Here is A scientific definition of a woman from an actual MD Female: The traditional definition of female was "an individual of the sex that bears young" or "that produces ova or eggs". However, things are not so simple today. Female can be defined by physical appearance, by chromosome constitution (see Female chromosome complement), or by gender identification. Female chromosome complement: The large majority of females have a 46, XX chromosome complement (46 chromosomes including two X chromosomes). A minority of females have other chromosome constitutions such as 45,X (45 chromosomes including only one X chromosome) and 47,XXX (47 chromosomes including three X chromosomes). There is also a wideer definition which includes transgender women. But it doesn't fit with your beliefs or on a tshirt so you wouldn't be interested. Nonetheless, science doesn't owe anyone a short punchy definition

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In reply to Marisol Evans

Marisol Evans

Looks like certain people are camping on this thread

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Rhian

Someone in WG needs to be paying attention to this issue given the various employment tribunals that are currently going on regarding the right of NHS staff to single sex changing rooms and the upcoming Supreme Court judgement re For Women Scotland, plus the effect that the Cass Review should have on the details of the LGBTQ+ Action Plan the WG has currently. Are they really this complacent? Glad that someone is trying to get some answers out of them!

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Kurt Morgan

The problem with SINGLE sex spaces is that soon the NHS and other public bodies will be required to provide four or even five different changing rooms and toilets. Principally this will happen because the insistence of people whose understanding of gender based biology is limited to GCSE Biology, which doesn't even begin to describe the complexity of gender at birth, let alone after puberty!

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Beth

I think Prof Robert Winston, IVF expert, and Richard Dawkins have scientific understanding beyond GCSE biology - have a look at what they say.

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In reply to Beth

Marisol Evans

Neither Prof Winston nor richard Dawkins have expertise in this area

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Another Richard

How many sexes are there, Kurt?

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In reply to Another Richard

Kurt Morgan

More than 2.

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In reply to Kurt Morgan

Elen

What is the third sex Kurt? And don’t say ‘intersex’ because they are not a gotcha for your argument - people with differences in sexual development are categorically either male or female, they are not both or neither and they are not a third sex. And they are not impressed at being weaponised by the ignorant.

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Elen

That’s not the problem with single sex spaces Kurt - what you’re describing is actually the precise problem with gender identity ideology. Provision of space is quite simple - male/female/mixed sex. That’s all that’s needed; and a clear statement as to what sex is. It’s not complicated at all.

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In reply to Elen

Kurt Morgan

Mixed sex eh? So, you expect post operative Trans women to change in front of post operative Trans men. Ah yes, the 'they can go over there' mentality. I am not opposed to mixed sex changing rooms and toilets because there are more than 2 sexes/genders, however if someone doesn't consider themselves mixed sex they shouldn't be made to use a facility they doesn't fit with their gender identity. The only ideology that is at fault is that of social Conservative dogma. The past should be remembered, but there was much wrong with it and telling people that they HAD to fit into fixed ideas of gender was one of them.

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Elen

Indeed they do.

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Emzi

Why can’t the FM just answer the question? It’s an easy one! (Woman=Adult human female). They talk about keeping women and girls safe, and purport to know what is important to women in Wales, yet they are quick to ignore issues women’s groups raise and keep them out of consultation. Absolutely embarrassing they refuse to or struggle to define what a woman is.

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Adrian

It's the same when you ask any of them to define 'gender identity'. They're outraged because they know the answer will sound utterly idiotic.

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Kurt Morgan

Ah yes gender definition from GCSE Biology, which doesn't even mention Feminine Testicular Syndrome 🙄

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Evan Aled Bayton

Probably in a 100 years time people will read about all this debate about trans stuff and wonder why as the world was heading towards a major crisis likely a war and a climate crisis that anyone had time to talk about it at all. It is a new theology where the arguments are as pointless as how many angels can fit on the head of a pin.

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Sarah Wilkinson

If you can't define what a woman is, how will you recognise and protect women's rights? This is not a 'culture war'. The FM knows the answer - she's kowtowing to the Westminster party with this pathetic word play.

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Kurt Morgan

Defining a woman is easy is it? Really?! Does your definition incorporate Feminine Testicular Syndrome?

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Mab Meirion

The most expensive seaside Punch and Judy Show in Christendom... Ask Rev Millar what he prays for...eternal segregation, And how old is the Planet ? Give over, people are watching...

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Rob

If you have a penis your a man If you have a vagina your a woman. Problem solved.

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Mab Meirion

This guy is way above his pay grade, he should be on Oxford Street with a sandwich board around his neck... It breaks one's heart, 3 million people look to this place for a good curator but it is a parish shambles of a council...they don't grow into the job, they reduce it to this...after getting on their knees before they break their fast...this is not the Secular building the Law says it should be...

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Beth

I can’t stand Trump, Reform or the Tories but this is not a culture war point. The culture warriors are those who dogmatically refuse to listen to women on this and spout unscientific nonsense. *Labour and Plaid - for goodness sake’s WAKE UP and look at the polling!!* Look at what happened to the democrats in the states when they refused to engage with the obvious problems these policies cause. The latest polling shows British women are fine with trans identification but do NOT want to share eg changing rooms with males. (See Mumbles changing room story). Parents don’t want their kids told it’s possible to change sex, based on regressive and sexist stereotypes. (See Professor Winston explain it’s not possible to change sex). Most British people can see it’s totally unfair and exclusionary to women to have males in female sports. These are not radical positions. Gender non-conformity is completely normal and should not be medicalised. Trans people deserve to be completely safe but not at the expense of women’s single sex spaces. Welsh Labour needs to shift position to be more in line with the British public or pay the consequences for looking like lunatics. I’m saying all this because I do NOT want a heavy Tory /Reform presence in the Senedd in 2026.

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Marisol Evans

And there's that BUT .... Trump is driving trans people out of ANY place in society. You try to distance yourself from him but not that attempted eradication. Did you think it would stop at toilets? Hate never stops where you want it to. There's always someone worse, willing to take your biases to the next level

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Rob

This is the same Welsh Labour Party that tried to implement gender quotas in the Senedd. In other words gender doesn't matter where you go to use the toilet, but it matters if you want to stand for an election. Bizarre logic.

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Susan

It's not a culture war issue it's a Woman's Right issue, and any political party who can't tell the difference between a man and a women (which is all of them but the Tories apparently) are not going to be able to address the major problems that this country face's.

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Sarah Wilkinson

What "female only body parts" do they have?

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Llyn

They were born girls. They have no male parts. They have not transitioned.

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Marisol Evans

Uterus, womb, ovaries, labia, clitoris. In some cases a little underdeveloped but all present according to released information. Which is a humiliation they should not have had to go through to satisfy the genital obsession of "gender critical" people. They are women, whether or not you agree. As are transgender women

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hdavies15

Come off it Llyn. Prize money is awarded for being a winner or a finalist in most sports. A woman winning her world 100 metres championship race merits the same prize as the man who wins his world 100 metres championship. What's wrong with that ? Or do you look down at the woman because she may be 0.9 - 1.0 second slower ? A man who can't hack it in male competition who proceeds to self identify as a "woman" just so he can improve his prospects of winning something deserves contempt and exclusion.

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Kurt Morgan

I see that you completely missed Llyn's point, or did you just choose to ignore it?

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Marisol Evans

So would you change gender to win prizes? Would you go through time, expense, pain, ridicule, brutal surgeries, lifelong medication to get ANY advantage whatsoever? Could you live in an identity NOT your own for ANY reason? We both know the answer is no. Not under any circumstances. So why do you think anyone else would to the same? Even the "assaulting women in toilets" lie is patently absurd. Men have no shortage of opportunities to assault women, without turning their lives upside down. Imagine for a second if you will, why someone would go through all of the hell of changing gender in a nation that hates them for it. That they need this so much that all the other strife is a price worth paying.

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Joseph Kelly

The comments here seem to miss the point. For the leader of the conservative party, which has done so little on women's rights over the years, to use international women's day as a way to attack the female first minister on a wedge issue for political gain is simply disgusting to me. This should be regardless of your opinion on gender.

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Mab Meirion

Well said, first principal... He is baiting the girls in the playground... He should not be an MS, he is far too immature and compromised...

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Beth

It’s not a wedge issue for 50% of the population, the majority of whom, according to polling, accept the right of trans ID people to live freely, but not for trans ID males to use single sex female spaces.

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Joseph Kelly

Maybe wedge issue is the wrong word but let's be real: The first minister shouldn't be engaging with petty questioning like this that achieves nothing but demeaning the Senedd. The full response (and the position I believe Welsh Labour hold) is that generally a women is a female adult human but that there are some rare exceptions (using the qualification 'trans') - due to people born genuinely inter-sex and people who have fully transitioned (so no longer share the same biological traits as their gender of birth) or come from societies that do not place such an importance on sex based gender - whose rights to use women's only spaces and participate in women's only competitions/quotas etc. must be considered on a case by case basis balancing the safety of women & trans women. [there are also people in the process transitioning which is another conversation]. As mentioned in other commens the use of single sex spaces is such a minor issue compared to the challenges that face us in the world and Wales. I cannot believe that any argument that puts such overweighted importance on this issue are made in good faith. You say 50% of the population but the vast majority of women I meet are not interested in this conflict and realise that statistically women's safety has very, very little to do with trans people. [As we saw with the olympic boxing the anti-trans movement often ends up even hurting biological women]. Obviously you think differently. I understand completely the need to protect women's spaces but trans people are an extremely at risk group for violence and discrimimation. We must also ensure their protection. All I've got to say. As usual things are more complicated than can be summarised in a one line phrase.

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Marisol Evans

There's that slur again. The poll was carried out by a non governmental conservative owned polling company on behalf of the Telegraph. Responses were by open invite on the internet. Not a scientific poll by any stretch of the imagination. From an actual scientific poll 45% of men are opposed to trans people existing, but only 15% of women. totting up to a total of 30% opposing

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In reply to Marisol Evans

Beth

You seem determined to see bad faith. For the second time, I think Trump is appalling and in the US they are swinging from one appalling extreme to another on this. Both extremes are causing horrific problems for people. It’s not UK women standing up for single sex spaces that are trying to get trans people in the US fired or pride parades banned - that’s the American far right. Telling British women to just be quiet about our own experience or Trump will be emboldened is nonsensical. Start being reasonable.

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In reply to Marisol Evans

Beth

Here’s Yougov’s methodology so people can judge for themselves whether their surveys are robust.https://yougov.co.uk/about/panel-methodology

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Another Richard

If the First Minister simply answered the question it would not be a wedge issue, or indeed an issue at all. The fact that she refuses to answer the question tells us that she has made herself hostage to the barmiest social movement of all time.

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Llandudno boy

Well said Darren Miller. A woman is an adult female.

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Marisol Evans

There are plenty of adult women who are transgender. So yeah I agree

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Beth

I’m going to answer in good faith in the hope someone sensible in Labour and Plaid takes this onboard, wakes up and stops with the ‘culture war’ straw man. You are looking at this purely from the perspective of the trans-identified male and ignoring why women want female-only spaces. Please look at this from the perspective of the majority of women, as per polling. I personally know a trans-identified male who is extremely lovely and I know is not a danger to women in any way. I’m going to call this person ‘he’ for clarity, not cruelty. Women who do not know him would perceive him as male and can’t know he is a good person who is genuinely gender dysphoric and also gentle. Across society the majority of women have been sexually harassed and a large number have been sexually assaulted, raped or otherwise traumatised by males. Fear and apprehension of males is *rational behaviour* in women. It is not bigotry. Older women have not been radicalised by conspiracy theories on Twitter - we are speaking from our own ‘lived experience’ and statistics. This is not the fault of the lovely trans-identified male I know, but it does mean he will potentially cause fear and discomfort among women who want to eg get undressed in a female changing room. He 100% deserves to be safe and treated with respect and I entirely accept that he needs somewhere away from standard male changing spaces because a minority of men are so savage and weak in their character that they will attack gender non-conforming males. (Male on male violence also needs tackling as well as violence against women.) Whether or not a trans ID male has had gender reassignment surgery is irrelevant to the impact they will have on the women around them. I realise some trans ID males ‘pass’ - but not as many as think they do, and ultimately we ask all men who identify as women to respect the majority of women’s feelings about this. Some women are comfortable with trans-ID males in single sex spaces but they have zero right to consent on behalf of other women. The other argument is that ‘there’s only a tiny number of trans women, why do you care’ but this ignores the impact that one trans ID male can have on a large number of women. One male using a female club changing room affects all the women who want to use that club. We also cannot distinguish between the lovely, gentle trans ID male and a male predator abusing self ID. There is nothing ‘kind’ or ‘inclusive’ about acting against women’s interests in this way after millennia of ongoing oppression. As for sport, I did not say women are ‘not as good’ and you reveal how you only see things from a male perspective with this comment (you aren’t alone). Men and women’s bodies are different. It would obviously be ridiculous for women to claim men are inherently physically inferior just because they are incapable of the spectacular feat of growing and nurturing babies. We have different biology that cannot be compared. Any male in a female sport category is excluding women. For example, Emily Bridges was about to push out a female cyclist from the Welsh Commonwealth team, before British Cycling stepped in. The Welsh media coverage of that issue (don’t think Nation Cymru was around then) was entirely from the male perspective with no thought for the exclusionary and potentially devastating impact on female athletes, who were expected to quietly step aside in the face of their exclusion. That’s not including the message it sends to all young female athletes. But rather than acknowledge how sexist and oppressive all this is, the First Minister and leader of Plaid would rather pretend only far-right ‘culture warriors’ care about this. I repeat - I am not a Tory and I’m horrified by Trump and Reform. Leftwing parties need to get back to reality and gets their heads out of the sand.

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Marisol Evans

you used the slur "trans identified male" at that point any feeling human being stops reading. You are not horrified by Trump and Reform for their horrific treatment of trans people. If you support them on anything, you are one of them.

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Another Richard

It's a perfectly simple and straightforward question and I do not see how it is misogynistic to ask it. I am sure Megan Lloyd George would have known how to answer it without making a fool of herself, but then she lived before before the time when "progressives" had to believe six impossible things before breakfast.

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Jez Grove

Where did all the comments disappear to - they're there in the archived copy of this article?

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Stephen Price

Comments get voted down and then disappear after a certain number of down-votes

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Another Richard

Thank you for explaining this. In my view it is a very negative feature of this website. It allows unpopular views to be suppressed too easily; it would only take a dozen or so determined people to make views they disapprove of disappear.

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In reply to Another Richard

Stephen Price

I'll feed that back certainly - fors and againsts, but it's only the odd story (such as this) where it impacts (and keeps us busy behind the scenes too) but there's always social media for conversations in the wild.

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In reply to Stephen Price

Another Richard

Thank you. Social media most certainly does exist - but tends to be very polarised. Nation.Cymru really adds value by providing a forum where the opposing schools of thought have to address each other's arguments, and it is a pity if zealots on either side are able to sabotage that by a concerted campaign of downvoting.

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In reply to Stephen Price

Marisol Evans

So single issue campaigners (as are evident in this thread) can mob opinions they disagree with out of existence?

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Kurt Morgan

That isn't helpful in comment threads like this. Bigots need to face the facts and deal with reality. How can we do that if they can just down-vote inconvenient facts away?

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Elen

The FM needs to have an eye on Scotland where failure to answer this question and dimissing women’s rights as a culture war has already cost two FMs their jobs and could yet topple a third. She needs to read the room. I’m no fan of Miller but he is by no means ‘on his own’ in wanting an answer to this question. Hopefully, the cases outstanding and to come, and the forthcoming judgement from the Supreme Court (which is considering this very question, right now), will put an end to this ‘culture war’ blather.

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Kurt Morgan

Okay, question for you then, where do post operative Trans women change and use the toilet if they're not allowed to use the Women's facilities? For that matter where do post operative Trans men change and use the toilets because they're effected by these issues too.

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Elen

TW can use the mixed sex (‘gender neutral’) facilities if they don’t want to use the male’s - and the women who identify as men can use the same or those allocated for women. Women are not human shields for men, no matter their identity. And it’s worth remembering that more that 95% of men who identify as women have no surgery at all. Single sex facilities are a legal requirement and accommodation for those who have a gender identity issue can be provided by mixed sex facilities. Simple.

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Adam

Weird, he's never done a thing for actual women's rights, and like the rest of his party, he's quite 50's minded when it comes to women. It's almost as if he's carefully picked a certain day to say very specific things....

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Garycymru

Bandwagon jumping is all the Tories live for.

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Kurt Morgan

Worse than that he outright opposes Reproductive rights for women. He wants Abortions banned and the pill only to be given to married women, with their husband's permission. Very 50s indeed 🙄🤨😠

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Merch o Wynedd

If Eluned Morgan thinks that this isn't a topic that causes concern for the citizens of Cymru, she's very wrong. Not in touch with her electorate. Ask Nicola, Humza and all the women that have won court cases on this issue

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Daniel Pitt

Because letting trans people exist is massively hurting the economy. Or something. Once again the "Welsh" Conservatives have no ideas about how to improve living standards in Wales.

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Replying to Kurt Morgan Cancel

Defining a woman is easy is it? Really?! Does your definition incorporate Feminine Testicular Syndrome?

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