Jeremy Vine panelists discuss 'immoral' Crown Estate fees: 'The revolution starts here'

Stephen Price

A clip from a recent episode of Channel 5's Jeremy Vine that discussed the headline-making move from a Welsh council to refuse to pay for access to Crown Estate lands has gone viral, with panelist Yasmin Alibhai-Brown saying: "This is not going to wash any more."

The headlines follow Cyngor Gwynedd's move to call on the Crown Estate to stop charging it more than £161,000 a year so the public can have access to beaches and other coastal areas.

The proposal from Plaid Cymry Councillor Dewi Jones’ represents a new phase in the campaign to get Crown Estate revenues devolved to Wales.

They are already devolved to Scotland, and the argument is increasingly being made that the revenues should come directly to Wales.

"It's a deeply unfair thing, they do not need this money."@y_alibhai backs a Welsh council withholding Crown Estate fees from the Royal Family, saying the payments can't be justified in the context of rising poverty.@GeoffNorcott | @theJeremyVine | #JeremyVine pic.twitter.com/5QpONLSdQK

— Jeremy Vine & Storm Huntley on 5 (@JeremyVineOn5) October 3, 2024

Jeremy Vine introduced the feature, sharing that: "The Council may withhold the immoral Crown Estate fees."

After clarifying how to pronounce Cyngor Gwynedd properly, journalist and author, Yasmin Alibhai-Brown said that: "£160,000 is owed to The Crown Estate which owns vast amounts of land in this country which was stolen from peasant owners many centuries ago.

"And I'm really pleased that somewhere small rebellions like these are starting."

Vine asked: "What are they paying for?"

Alibhai-Brown responded: " Do you know how much money both William and Charles are making out of the Crown Estate? It is unspeakable."

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"I hope this takes off"

Mistaking the way in which profits are made and land is used, Vine asked if they're giving up sea for us to allow wind turbines to be built on. "They've allowed us to use the sea?"

Alibhai-Brown interjected: "This is not going to wash any more. I hope this takes off!"

Vine asked if another panelist can defend the Royal Family, and was told: "The only thing I would say is that not all of these revenues go to the Crown itself." Somewhat confused, he continues: "The Crown is a word that encompasses the State itself."

Yasmin Alibhai-Brown said: "I'll tell you what - it's kept so secret, that there's no way of verifying what you've just said.

"We do not know what amount they earn, they don't pay taxes, that we do know. It's all buried in secrecy.

"And I'm really pleased this is happening and it should happen a lot more, especially in Cornwall where so much poverty is unaddressed.

"Crown Estates belong to the country"

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"Deeply unfair"

"What's my go to argument? Once you start allowing Councils to shame people into not paying their bills, they won't pay for anything. Maybe the council should be better run?

Alibhai-Brown countered: "And you know that not to be true. This is a deeply unfair thing. They do not need this money."

Jeremy interrupted: "When they sell the land to someone else, they will charge the council."

She argued: "They should be compelled to sell the land for the minimum seedcorn amount. This belongs to us."

In response to a panelist saying that "the revolution started here," Vine ended the segment saying: "The revolution will now be televised."

Profits

The motion from Plaid Cymru says: “Cyngor Gwynedd [Gwynedd council] states that we believe responsibility for the Crown Estate should be devolved to the Welsh Government.

"Any profits generated by the Crown Estate, here on Welsh lands and waters, should remain in Wales, for the benefit of our residents and communities. Responsibility for the Crown Estate is already devolved to the Scottish Government.

“This council also states our dissatisfaction that we are obliged to pay annual fees (in the form of leases) to ensure that Gwynedd residents and visitors have access to various sites, including our beaches and other facilities. In 2023, Cyngor Gwynedd paid a total of over £161,000 to the Crown Estate. Lease fees in 2023 ranged from £35 for ‘Bangor beachfront’, to £8,500 for ‘Dwyfor beach front’, to £144,000 for ‘Hafan Pwllheli’. In a period of severe financial hardship for public services, we believe that it is immoral that such fees go towards the maintenance of the British Monarchy and to the coffers of the Treasury in London. This money should remain in Gwynedd to support the people of Gwynedd.

“We call on the chief executive to make arrangements to open discussions with the Crown Estate regarding the fees paid by Cyngor Gwynedd. We will encourage the chief executive to endeavour to persuade the Crown Estate to delay further invoicing until such time as the council’s financial situation has improved. We note that the Crown Estate’s profits have more than doubled from £443m in 2022/23 to £1.1bn in 2023/24. During the same period Cyngor Gwynedd has seen its budget cut in real terms.”

Immoral

Councilor Jones, who represents the Peblig ward in Caernarfon, said: “Every year we give around £160,000 to the Crown Estate to be able to access our beaches, and other places around the county.

“For us, a county council that has seen our budget cut every year in real terms, I think that is quite immoral. Especially as we face further cuts to services as the profits of the Crown Estate more than doubled in the past year.

“I feel strongly that we should stop these payments for now and start a real conversation about the devolution of land management, and the profits that come from them to the Welsh Government.”

Across Wales, the Crown Estate owns land estimated to be worth more than £603m. That includes 65% of the coast of Wales and 300,000 acres of land, as well as any gold and silver that is found on it,

Historian Dr Elin Jones told BBC Cymru: “The Crown Estate is the lands that belong to the Crown – not to any king or queen personally. The income that comes from that land in England and Wales goes towards supporting the Crown and the government of the UK – and a percentage of it goes to support the royal family directly.”

Not everyone agrees with Cllr Jones’ motion, however. Sam Kurtz, the Welsh Conservative MS for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire, told BBC Cymru: “When I talk to companies that want to come into Wales, to invest in green industries, they don’t talk about the devolution of the Crown Estate. They are talking about planning and how we can bring in more people with additional skills that are needed in the new industries,”

Social value

Asked about Cllr Jones’ motion, a spokesperson for the Crown Estate said it was working closely with the Welsh Government to ensure that it creates financial, environmental and social value, now and in the long term.

Journalist Richard Palmer, who has covered royal stories for more than 20 years, said: “Dr Elin Jones is wrong to say that a percentage of the Crown Estate income goes to support the Royal Family ‘directly’. None of the money goes to the monarchy.

“The profits are just used as a benchmark, an alternative to the inflation rate, to determine the amount of taxpayer support for the monarch in the Sovereign Grant.

“If the Crown Estate revenues were devolved to Wales, that would obviously affect the total profit figure for the remaining rump and thus the Sovereign Grant calculation.

"But Welsh taxpayers would continue to pay for their share of the costs of the monarchy through general taxation and any money from Westminster to Wales would be adjusted to reflect the loss of money to the Treasury from the Crown Estate.”