The trouble with England – why rioting in the UK has not spread to Scotland and Wales

An excellent article. It shows that governments, while rightly should be condemning far right thuggery (and they should also condemn the far left hate-spreading!), should also talk to and listen to the people they represent ( - not rule!).

Interesting points, though I'm very wary of complacency about the underlying issues in Wales. If we shrug and think "not a problem here" aren't we showing the exact same carelessness that has let the situation fester and reach this point in England? We may not have had riots, but there is clearly similar sentiment out there when you consider the protests in Llanelli this year and how this played out in the election locally. There's also been the notable rise of the Reform vote in Wales generally, which I think we could fairly say usually aligns with grievance and anti-immigration sentiment. And that's before you consider that governments of all different types across Europe are seeing the rise of the populist right wing. I'm also highly doubtful that the lack of their own Senedd equivalent has contributed to English people's sense of being disenfranchised. I have no beef with the Welsh Government, but its existence has not really turned the dial on this. I suspect that Welsh people are just as likely to feel disillusioned with politics and unempowered.

The land currently known as England has historically been an arrivals terminal for a multitude of people crossing the channel, including the English themselves. Even the English language is a mongrel esparanto, combining the different languages that came with the migration. The distant hills and mountains hindered migration to the north and west, which is probably why we still have an indigenous language and our own national identity.

I've been fortunate to travel the world during my lifetime and I can honestly say that the English are the most confused people on Earth when it comes to their national identity. They always revert to the English / British default option. When I say, unequivocally, that I am Welsh I've been told over the years that I'm not because really I am British or, incredibly, English. When they say they are British I ask English people to define Britishness, it is invariably stuff like their Royal Family, fish 'n' chips, and the English football team. It is never the Eisteddfod, the Highland Games, the Cornish language or the thousands of other (Celtic) signifiers that they could cite. The lack of a clear English identity, and understanding of Britishness, is holding back their country, and sadly, as we are attached with an umbilical cord, ours with it.

As fake social media information has been used to encourage the rioting, it needs to be mentioned that Wales Online included their own version of click-bait fake news on this. There were no far right demonstrations in Aberystwyth or Tenby, no entrances blocked or shops closed in Cardiff, hence a small counter demo being subdued. Those there and absent knowing that the far right don't march around Cymru waving an imperialist flag that we are happy to be excluded from.

Have you noticed how the english media are categorising demonstrations, lootings, violence etc. as being in England and Wales when sod all has happened in Wales yet!!! Now if it was good news it would be england only.

Some interesting points made but the article doesn't really delve deep enough into the underlying trends in Wales. For example the article ignores the fact that Wales also overwhelmingly voted Brexit as a means to reduce immigration and to secure our borders. This hasn't happened. Also the Reform party and its anti mass immigration policies are doing pretty well in Wales. With regard to England I suspect the idea of hundreds of thousands of people arriving in England on small boats each year, without any of the usual background checks, worries many. As France is a peaceful country it may be difficult for many English people to understand why they are fleeing. Also people are suffering from the destruction of the UK infrastructure including the NHS, social housing etc etc and a high cost if living, people are struggling and maybe fear increased competition for social housing, doctors, dentists etc etc. Finally the working class have no political voice, their concerns are ignored. Little wonder many are frustrated and angry

This is very much spot on. It is clear that the Unionist parties also hold the Anglo-British conflation falsehood to be true and foist it upon all and sundry. The UK is its political manifestation. This is nothing more than imperialism ... and they have the affrontery to accuse those of us who stand firm in our long established nationhoods of being "nationalists". Let me make it abundantly clear. Those of us who stand for British Pluralism, for democratic States for our historic nations, we are correct, we stand on the moral high ground. It is the right of every nation to govern its own affairs. Anglo-British imperialism denies us that right. It seeks to extend a monoculture over these isles. It even sometimes masquerades as progressive. It is not. It is radical in that it seeks to change reality. We are Cymry. It cannot tolerate that fact. If it cannot accomodate the various nationhoods of Britain then it is a failed philosophy and its constitutional imposition must end. Britain needs a new constitutional settlement which enshrines our nationhoods and places governance of those nations in the hands of each of them via democratically elected national parliaments. Therein should be expressed the sovereign will of each nation's electorate. We should also recognise our closeness and the need to cooperate. On matters of inter-isles importance, we should meet in a Council of the Isles where we agree on common rights and policy where relevant. This is the way forward. Not the present Westminster consensus which preserves the Tory State and imposes an artificial and erroneous vision of British Nationalism over Great Britain and beyond.

The only one of which I've heard was apparently planned for Cardiff, but ultimately never happened because it was called off. There has been one guy living in Wales who's been convicted in the last couple of days, but he went to England to do his protesting and was sentenced for an offence there.

Seeing England had an empire, and the empire was England's not Britain's I might add, suppose why those race riots largely occurred in England with one exception in Belfast , Northern Ireland, no doubt fuelled by loyalist communities. There's an influx of asylum seekers in Kent because it is the closest point to Europe, not forgetting those asylum seekers only know England seeing they turned half the globe pink and historically where power & financial hub has been centered. Also those thugs rioting love the idea England controlled once half the world and they fear becoming a small fish in a big pond. Too late. You already are. And less we forget. Inwardly the English/British establishment demand that people in Wales , Scotland & Northern Ireland think of themselves as British where outwardly they promote the history & culture of England to the world. The evidence: On Ynys Mon there is a statue placed by the Westminster establishment commemorating Lord Nelson victory at Trafalgar. On a plaque there is a message. It reads , and I quote: "England expects every man do his duty". The same Nelson quote appears also on Nelson's column in Trafalgar Square, London and the Nelson Monument in Edinburgh , Scotland. Not very inclusive. Note: The battle of Trafalgar occurred in 1805, some 101 years into the union between England & Scotland and 5 years since the island of Ireland was incorporated. The so-called United Kingdom is never mentioned. And I don't include Wales as we are political prisoner and not part of this false union. You'd swear blind England fought most wars alone. Saying that. Didn't England face the Nazis alone in 1939-45 world war? Yes they did. Well according to the lyrics sung by Bud Flanagan who claimed in the opening credits of the BBC comedy show Dad's Army. Lyrics: "Who do you think you're kidding Mr Hitler if you think old England's done." Why are you highlighting a lyric from a comedy series you say? Well if a show sold around the world promotes the idea that England fought alone during WW2 , those fallen Welsh, Scottish & Northern Irish soldiers omitted and their communities destroyed by the Germans during raids died & suffered for nothing because they are effectively whitewashed from history. Ponder that thought. Oh, and before anyone says different. I'm not naive to think everybody in Wales & Scotland are favourable to asylum seekers or all inclusive saints. We have our fair share of scumbags. Just look at those morons in "The Voice of Wales.". No doubt they are itching to cause trouble as seen when they bused in thugs from England during the height of Covid with them to bait asylum seekers housed in that ex-Army base in Pembrokeshire a few years back.

'The union itself has been, first and foremost, an English product.' ... 'This means that the reduction of Britain’s role in the world in the wake of the break up of the British empire has arguably been felt more keenly by the English.' 'A “nostalgic yearning” for the lost imperial power is part and parcel of this nostalgic English national imaginary. This helps explain why protesters and rioters have been chanting Rule Britannia.' I think that there's something in the argument presented here. I grew up as a child outside Manchester, so my early environment was entirely English - though maybe of a distinctive 'northern' variety! And as I'll be 79 later this month, my memory goes back quite a long way. My very earliest memories, from the first half of the 1950s, recall a frame of thinking among family and neighbours that while we were still stuck in drab post-war austerity, 'we'd won the war' and that the country's future was promising. Because, despite being pretty broke as a nation, post-war, the government had created the NHS, revamped education in a way which looked set to widen opportunities for the new generation of kids - i.e. mine! - and had established a welfare state which would safeguard ordinary folk from the worst of such adverse circumstances which might come their way. War-weariness was therefore also infused with some optimism for the future. And all of that briefly received a very real shot in the arm in 1953 with the coronation of the new queen, which a lot of folk people seemed to see as a sort of icon of the new hopeful future. There was, I remember, a great deal of blather about a wonderful 'new Elizabethan age' dawning, and an expectation, once the rationing was finally over, of a 'revival': both of Britain's world power status and of a sense of renewed loyalty to Britain, here and right across the Empire, under its new young and 'gracious Queen'. (Though as the 'Express' was the only newspaper which came through our letterbox back then, it may be that there were other more nuanced viewpoints which I missed!) Be that as it may, as things actually turned out, much of that didn't happen. Materially the UK did indeed prosper, so much so that Harold Macmillan's government made 'you've never had it so good' their key message at the 1959 general election, and won with it. But when the UK tried posturing as a great power again in the context of the Suez intervention in 1956 the Americans slapped Britain down and forced a humiliating climb-down. 'Our loyal colonies', beginning with the Gold Coast in 1957, made it very clear that Britain valued the Empire way more than they did, and colony after colony peeled off into independence. Even in those colonies where British governments, for various specific reasons, tried to resist colonial independence movements they comprehensively failed, and 'Empire' perforce was transformed into 'Commonwealth' - which was a very different and considerably more amorphous thing! In reality the UK was being reduced, and even ordinary folk could hardly wholly ignore that reality entirely. Westminster governments certainly couldn't, and that's why - rather reluctantly - they came to focus on closer relationships with our near neighbours in Europe. Ultimately, even applying to join the Common Market! And I do think that, psychologically, that decline of the Empire had more of an impact on English folk than it did on people in the rest of the UK - simply because 'the Empire' was from the start an essentially English adventure, Ireland and Wales being its very first colonies!

Does being Welsh really need to be explained to you? Does nationhood depend on the laws of the state in which one finds oneself? We do not need our nationhood to be enshrined in the UK. We need the UK to be replaced by a new constitutional settlement that represents the nations of Britain correctly. The UK is the problem, not Welsh, Scottish or English nationhood.

It's ironic really that the nation born of mass immigration is complaining about mass immigration. Doubly so that most of those protesting probably voted for this in 2016, back when there were no small boats and net migration was one quarter of what it is today.

Sadly, ideas of English nationality seem to be based not on love of England's "green and pleasant land", the wealth of its literature and music, but on "biffing Johnny foreigner". Bizarrely, the statue in Parliament Square in London is not of Harold Godwinson, who died fighting to preserve England's freedom from a foreign oppressor but of that oppressor - William of Normandy - himself. The subjugation of the British Isles and the growth of the Empire are seen as "good things". Until the English wake up to the fact that the threat to English identity comes from the modern successors of the Normans rather than from their fellow-victims of oppression and exploitation they will continue to live out an increasingly grotesque xenophobic narrative.

Yep, no rioting in Wales - yet. But pillocks like RTD2 are working hard to change that.

'I think that the history of the peoples of these islands and our present constitutional reality would be better expressed by a progressive citizenship act that recognized “Welsh Citizenship of the United Kingdom”' Up to the middle of the decade previous to the current one, my own perspective wasn't that different from the one which you endorse in that sentence. But then we experienced the Brexit referendum and its outcome, and I realized that my previous vision of a loosely federal and consensual Europe in a loosely consensual UK with devolution established was now pretty much closed off; and that the sole alternative now looked to be a 'British' nativism which, simply as a result of populations numbers, would in reality be an English nativism with the numerically smaller 'Celtic fringe' dragged along beside and behind. That wasn't a state of affairs which I could favour. So, curiously, I was transformed from 'indy-scepticism' to 'indy-curiosity'. Strange how things pan out, because I'm sure that sort of possible outcome never occurred to your average Brexiteer crusader.

I am not convinced that the thuggish violence was based on any sense of nationality or extreme right-wing politics . Manipulated nationality may have been a minor trigger for the current riots, nothing more. I think one should consider Lord Sewell's 2021 report pointing out that the white working class (especially male) is the largest disadvantaged people in the UK - and the centre of the deprived group is in the NE of England where the riots happened. Its not a Welsh / Scottish are better thing - the riot centre is merely matter of geography reflecting the worst social deprivation of the UK.

Some good points but academics shouldn’t massage evidence or ignore it completely. Everybody in Wales knows that the Brexit vote was 52.5% for leaving. Building the Empire was mainly an English project? Scots were disproportionately represented in the many professions, the army, medicine, administration that served the imperial project. Then there is “the Union was mainly an English project “. Clearly no one mentioned to them the Darien Scheme and it’s disastrous effect, almost bankrupting Scotland. The Union, though unwelcome to many, brought about a customs union of great benefit to Scotland to this day. There is more misspeaking about diversity. At 90.6% Wales has the highest number of people who identify as ‘white British’. The three truly white nations are NI (96.6%) Scotland and Wales (93%), while England overall is 82%, London is 36.8% white British + 17% white other.

The English and Welsh crowns were never "united", if it had been why the need of annexation huh? Why haven't anyone, even the tudors had England and Wales as equals?! Because no English monarch, even The Welsh tudors ever had our crown. The joining of England and Wales happened in 1536, why does everyone insist on ignoring Glyndwrs actions?!!!

Ooh an English racist. We don't see many of your kind around these parts. How about you piss off!

If Wales is experiencing 'mass immigration' it's from a very different set of people than those who arrive via the English coast in rubber boats. In that sense, anyone who has concerns about that variety of immigration is, almost by definition a racist scumbag.

I believe in helping people out of holes when they've been brainwashed by propaganda. But this, my friend, is some QAnon level delusion and you are TFG (too far gone)

I don't know whether the more or less unique factors surrounding immigration into Wales have any effect leading to the relative calm and lack of racist violence on our streets, but surely immigration cannot be properly considered unless it includes the very considerable numbers of English people who move here every year, which changes the way in which the debate is framed. Migrants who arrive in Wales from diverse homelands via rubber boats* landing in the coast of England have far less of an impact than migrants from England, and are, in general far easier to integrate, and often far more willing to do so. The nature of their arrival is also often quite different, with the majority of those arriving in rubber boats fleeing oppressive regimes, usually because they are from educated elites who form the thinking opposition to those regimes. Those who arrive here from England are usually attracted by the prospect of affordable property, as they have the economic clout to outbid locals who cannot even hope to compete in the local housing market so distorted is has become due to the dual factors of overtourism and the fetishisation of property ownership, which is allowed to continue as it is a significant bolster to UK GDP figures. None of the above should be seen as in any way preferring one variety of immigrant over another, but the contrasts should be glaring and should inform the debate on immigration here in Wales, its issues and the challenges presented by it. *I use the term rubber boats as a shorthand that includes anyone fleeing to the UK whether as an asylum seeker, a refugee or as an economic migrant. All have legitimate concerns that would be considerably eased were western governments to take their responsibilities seriously. I believe in freedom of movement, but the way the world is presents serious challenges to this as a workable ideal.

You just lied yourself. Wales: 52.5% Leave England: 53.4% Leave

The massive point you do need to understand is that the tiny Brexit majority in this country came from the English who have migrated to this country. Crass hypocrisy from people who believe that such migration should only be allowed from their country, but not to their country.

That's not how I read it. The scumbags are the troublemakers, would be troublemakers or troublemaker sympathisers. There's a big difference between having concerns about a nation's carrying capacity and strategically targeting demographics that you might have personal prejudices about. Especially people who have just escaped fascist regimes or war zones (I mean, the cruelty there is beyond scummy). The problem with these far-right thugs and their online counterparts is that they are deliberately squashing opportunity for reasonable dialogue about immigration or teen violence or any topic that they want to control. Their agenda is to cause division and hatred towards the people they don't like and sensible discussion threatens that. For example, there are Muslims out there who desperately want to raise awareness about Islamic extremism in order to get some help from wider society, but wider society doesnt want to talk about that because they don't want to give far-right Islamophobes an excuse to use that against the Islamic community. Similarly, I would like to know what the heck was going on in the mind of that Axel kid when he decided to walk into a community centre with a knife and murder children, because I think there's clearly something going on with young people's mental health and that was quite an important take away from that tragic news piece, but again that conversation has been shut down because far-right extremists dominated the topic with absurd and relentless rhetoric, when actually, yes, I think its worth pointing out the parallels between the Southport stabbings and Thomas Crooks a couple of weeks earlier and how the temperature of discussion regarding Crooks and subsequent public reaction was considerably cooler despite the incident relating to a presidential candidate. No demographics were targeted as a direct result of Crooks' actions. What was the obvious difference between the two young men? These comparisons weren't had because it didn't serve the far-right narrative of it being an immigration problem and so they bellowed over the sensible discussion with their nonsensical, irrelevant trademark gibberish. These are the scumbags. People may have genuine, logical questions about immigration, but they won't be answered, answers wouldnt be believed and issues won't be properly addressed while society is so defensive about what they should or should not say to avoid fuelling the hatemongers and rabble rousers, and that's what the scumbags are counting on. We can be sure of that.

If you're annoyed that your concerns about "mass immigration" might make some readers think you a "scumbag" or sympathetic to "scumbags" then you could put more effort into the wording and accuracy of the comments you have made eg on this thread- (other comments on other threads apply also) "Wales also overwhelmingly voted Brexit as a means to reduce immigration and to secure our borders." By the way Cymru only has one border. Does the use of "our borders" reveal a preference for the UK as the nation state?

Why say brexit was ,supported in Cymru more than elsewhere in the uk when evertone (sic)knows that England voted by a larger proportion than Cymru to leave. Not a massive point but why does everyone have to lie, all the time!Why England Leave votes 53.41% Cymru Leave votes 52.53%  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum Why indeed -probably ignorance rather than dishonesty

This was a really interesting read. The idea that Cymru sees its best years ahead and its worst years behind is certainly true for how I have always seen it

I'm pretty sure the 1707 act of union was by a Scottish king? How was it entirely English?

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Ultimately if England wants to find it's identity than it too must seek independence from the UK. Over the past two decades Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish identities have grown and devolution has also seen more progressive policies in those nations. England is still ruled by an archaic, out of date, past pining Westminster and is a deeply divided country, with plenty of wealth in the south east and poverty elsewhere. It's only a matter of time before the Union is dissolved and England will have to resolve those divisions once and for all.

On second reading, nope, just plain wrong. English imperialism in plain sight there.

Thanks for taking the trouble to provide a quod erat demonstrandum but we already have plenty.

It's not so much that Britain (England) does not gave uts own representation like Scotland, Wales & Ireland, it's the fact that we do, but, all the other nations are allowed to participate in parliament, and vote on things, where as itdoes not work the other way round

Weren't strong enough? 300 castles built by the Anglo-Normans say opposite. Also, did Bosworth field 1485 suddenly get erased from history?!

Ruled by you? Which language is protected by law!? What title is given to the heir? Who adopted who's name?

Great article. I think it's worth mentioning the crucial role of "social" media in all these turmoils. It's very easily exploitable to make people believe all sorts of nonsense. Blaming the foreigners for a country's troubles is an ancient strategy, and it's always worked, sadly. We don't ever seem to learn from History. It has been proved that several state actors have been involved in destabilisation campaigns based on "social" media in various countries of the world. Perhaps the UK should change the legislation so that people such as Musk and Zuckerberg are made to answer for the destructive role that their platforms have on our society. This madness can be stopped, but politics must rise above the appeal for personal gain, and start working for the benefit of the country again. I strongly believe in this country and that the best still lies ahead.

This article is overly simplistic. The far right has been on the rise across the whole of Europe and almost came to power in France so it is certainly not a problem confined to the English. Also the disorder has been perpetrated by a tiny proportion of the population of England,far too small a sample to be drawing conclusions about the national pysche. 62% of people voted leave Blaenau Gwent and who could forget the Mayhill riots in Swansea? Rather than sitting on our high horses and pointing the finger at the English we need to recognise that many of the same issues could easily have fuelled rioting in Wales but for the grace of God. Sorry but I don't think that people living in the valleys or Port Talbot are sitting around smugly believing that the Wales's best years are ahead. Maybe when it comes to rugby!

"the same 2018 YouGov survey, 80% of the residents of England identified strongly as English, but 82% also strongly identified as British, pointing to how “British and English identities are intertwined”." What a terribly bigoted post that has manipulated some shoddy statistics for an anti English agenda. Another way to interpret the data is that a lot of English are proud to be part of Scotland and Wales and feel like we are all one big family. Yes I was born in England so I'm stuck with being labelled English but I always put British on any form. (As I feel a connection to the rest of Britain). I mean we're all stuck on the same tiny island together. On the flip side - You only have to visit a few towns In Wales to feel the animosity towards English tourists or contractors. Additionally- the riots are probably worse in England as England has suffered most from the effects of uncontrolled immigration. One more point, if Scotland wants independence so much why did the SNP get wiped out at last election. And no, I didn't go rioting. No, I don't hate asylum seekers. I voted remain.

Parents should really do their kids a big favor by NOT passing down onto them destructive anti-social/-societal sentiments and perceptions (including stereotypes and ‘humor’), since such rearing ironically can make life so much harder for one’s own children. . It fails to prepare children for the practical reality of an increasingly diverse and populous society and workplace. It also makes it so much less likely those children will be emotionally content or preferably harmonious with their multicultural and multi-ethnic/-racial surroundings. . Children reared into their adolescence and, eventually, young adulthood this way can often be angry yet not fully realize at precisely what. Then they may feel left with little choice but to move to another part of the land, where their own ethnicity/race predominates, preferably overwhelmingly so. . Especially if it’s deliberate, rearing one’s very impressionable young children in such an environment of baseless contempt and overt bigotry amounts to a formidable form of child abuse. . Too often, such grotesque sentiment is acquired during childhood [regardless of skin color], sometimes even passed down generationally like a communicable virus/sickness. It may be further cemented by a misguided yet strong sense of entitlement, perhaps also environmentally acquired. . This serious social/societal problem can/should be proactively prevented by allowing young children to become accustomed to other peoples/cultures/faiths in a harmoniously positive manner. Not surprising, the earliest years are typically the best time to instill and even solidify diversity-positive attitudes and social-interaction life skills/traits into a very young brain/mind. … . I consider myself lucky in having a mother who never had anything disdainful to say about people of different races and cultures. In fact, she, though being of Croatian heritage, still enjoys watching/listening to the Middle Eastern and Indian subcontinental dancers and musicians on the multicultural channel. . Most memorable for me was being emphatically told at a very young and therefore impressionable age by her about the exceptionally kind and caring nature of our Black family doctor. I believe that in doing so she had a positive and lasting effect on me.

Your first paragraph confirms you have a problem with others speaking out. As with democracy, there will be others who will aspire to and achieve something different to what you may want. Your second paragraph is in denial. Our ancestors were strong enough to retain our homeland, hence you logging into a website called nation.cymru, confirming that Cymru is a nation. The 'Cymru' means 'people of the same tribe', a bit different to our bitter and divided neighbours, unable to accept mass migrants from many parts of the world it was hypocritically guilty of colonising.

Our ancestors weren't strong enough because, as usual, England outnumbered us by 20-1. England has this bad habit of outnumbering and cheating in all kinds of situations. They could not fight fair if they tried.

I think a basic point being overlooked is that a lot of people in Wales, and Scotland, want nothing to do with groups of people waving England flags or Union flags. They won’t align with ‘the old enemy’. Ask the average punter on the street if they know Wales is a ‘Nation of Sanctuary’, or what that means, and you’ll get blank looks. Show them a photo of shirtless red faced angry men waving England flags, and ask them if they support them, and you’ll likely get a firm ‘no’. But In other areas where the optics are less off putting, and the appeal is not to fantasies of some pre-immigration Olde England, there may be a quieter political shift happening. Reform made huge gains in Wales recently. It would be complacent to overlook that, in the current wave of relief that we seem to have avoided violent English protests.

"the UK. Which includes Scotland, Wales, Ireland and England." (I have quoted so you cannot go back and edit) Ireland??

There are many types of idiot. Which type thinks Ireland is still part of the UK?

You seriously need to learn to read the room!

Before we get too smug, can we please remember that the lunatic who murdered three little girls in Southport, injured many others, and effectively sparked the riots off, was Welsh?

Then tell us what represents Cymru on the Union Flag.