The unseen cost of Wales' new 20 mph speed limit

Now think of the knock-on effects on domiciliary care workers who are expected to journey from one call to another, often at the other side of a town or valley, who have a timetable to follow. Calls are often time-sensitive (due to medication needs); staff are already overstretched; travel takes up a large part of the overall hours (although typically 'unpaid' by private providers - mileage at circa 45p per mile not worked hours at circa £10.90 per hr). So there is likely to be an impact on efficiency of calls, a reduction in overall capacity, and an increase in care costs down the line.

Stuart thinks only of the benefits of reduced urban traffic casualties, but not of the benefits of humanised village centres with increased cycling and walking. Think of St Nicholas or Dinas Powys on west Cardiff commuting routes. Such benefits can't be so easily quantified as Stuart sketches out for bus operations. At least Stuart gives no credence to the £4billion of the Tory anti-20mph campaign. That comes from giving a value to an extra minute or two on billions of car journeys 0n the standard Dept Transport calculator. No-one believes in such hypothetical costs; for example, the reduction in congestion from car-trips changed to walk or cycle reduces journey times so gives hypothetical savings.

I don't know about others but I know five families including my own who travel to Wales for small holidays ( and we usually stay in local hotels and use local shops , restaurants and visit attractions . We do this 4/5 times in a typical year . We are now contemplating stopping our visits. As much as we love our small holidays we do not want to get fined by the camera traps that we will definitely fall for . Best of luck to the Welsh government....I am sure they know what they are doing .

Spain introduced similar speed limits in 2019, has it's economy falen off a cliff since then? Truthfully I have no idea although the statistics online suggest not. It would be useful to have articles translated from Spanish that might help to inform the debate. A economy reacts to different things in different ways, fewer accidents might mean more people reaching their economic potential (ie not being killed or seriously injured). It might mean less serious damage to vehicles and lower insurance costs.Maybe less congestion which is the real time killer when travelling. I am sure there will be reviews and there will be more stretches of road that should be exempt (why 25mph is not allowed as a limit I do not know) and if speeds fall perhaps we can get rid of speed humps.

What If we have a closed road with just enough room for 2 way traffic travelling at 20 mph.and an emergency ambulance is coming along with no way to get through because of a backlog of 20 mph vehicles is that patient going to die .on your heads you ruleamakers

Andy reeves

Yes, but many delivery vans and HGVs are another matter. I'm vary familiar with the A468, and sadly too familiar with the many lorries that thunder through the villages (currently 30 limit) at speeds in excess of 50mph at all hours of day and night.

Forgive me if I'm missing the point when Swansea's Kingsway was mentioned - but that road is already 20mph? Please don't tempt the council to change that road again, we had people dying last time...

Buses are just the tip of the iceberg. As usual the Muppet show in Cardiff have done no proper research into this policy. Evidence based on old data, estimates and maybe's. It's "estimated" that this policy will cost £32million and save £100 million in the first year and save up to 6 lives. That sounds great. Well let's wait and see about those figures. Let's see how much your, plumber, electrician, gardener, handyman, delivery driver and taxi driver to name but a few put their prices up because of the extra travel time, I'm self employed and I know I'll be considering it, time is money. And if haulage companies decide it's costing them extra money then it's going to cost every one extra money! Then there's the fact that it's not just the 30mph speeds being lowered, RCT are lowering some national speed limit roads to 40mph as well. So when the diesel particulate filter fails on your car, who's paying for that? It certainly won't be the Welsh Government! As for pushing people to use public transport or walk or cycle then I'm all for that and it's probably very feasibility if you live and work in a city. But outside of Cardiff things are very different, bus routes being cut and the ones that remain are expensive. Our nearest train line is closed until next year at least and again expensive. No provisions for cyclists on our roads and seeing as Welsh Labour have killed all of our high streets it's a 5 mile walk to the nearest shopping outlet. Also of course if you're self employed and carrying tools for your work as I do a vehicle is imperative. If Mark Drakeford is so concerned about saving lives why doesn't he address the massive drug addiction problem, help our homeless, sort out the crumbling Welsh NHS or get our children above the poverty line? I hate to agree with the Tories bit this ridiculous policy Is going to cost the economy dearly. Oh and one more thing to any legal boffins out there, Is this policy enforceable on court of law???? Answers greatly appreciated!

The question should be why do we tolerate these stupid ideas ? We replace policemen with ramps of blacktop...such is the stupidity of these suicide so called politicians.

That's odd, because buses and deliveries often sat in queues at much lower speeds. It used to take me an hr on a bus to do 20 miles into Cardiff from the vale of glam. The reduced speed on a470 now adds a slither to time to get into Cardiff. Some desperate wannabe Jeremy Clarkson have no sense of reality. Just computer simulations on finance. They don't always ring true in reality.

The Welsh government haven’t gone about this is in the right way at all. Bus passenger numbers haven’t returned to pre Covid numbers because bus services haven’t returned to pre Covid timetables. I travel to work in Chester on a service that originates in Mold. The service is currently one bus per hour and is very unreliable. I work an eight hour day and am quite often out of the house for eleven hours for what is an eleven minute journey by car. If I had the money for a car I wouldn’t bother with the bus. Get the infrastructure in place first to have a viable and attractive alternative.

The Welsh Arsembly doesn't do cause-and-effect or joined-up thinking. It's dogma trumping common sense in most of their policies.

Ministers on 80k plus have not a clue i don't want this no matter what the justification idiots have lost my vote

The ridiculous thing is the reasons used to implement this are unsound. There death rates for 4-19 year olds on the roads are in single figures. More people in this age group commit suicide each year. So if its death rates, focus on suicide with the money. Just look at ONS statistics! Even environmentally, driving around in a lower gear negates any benefit re pollution. In fact could well be worse, as cars are not fully warmed up to optimum temperatures.

My car 30 mph runs at 12000 rpm at 20mphI must use 2nd gear which revs at 16000 rpm. Increase in traffic fumes.

90% of drivers don't comply with a 30mph anyway, and won't comply with a 20mph limit, unless you have a speed camera every 200 yards , how are the going to police it. The police ? They don't have enough resources to police their current commitments as it is .

The Welsh govt seems hell-bent on forcing people out of their cars, but provides no alternatives. Make the buses and the trains work FIRST, then people will naturally want to use them, and they will also be a viable alternative to car travel. However the current mess means that people will continue to drive, but now it will be even more miserable and expensive. Everyone I know who has used a train in the last 12 months has had the journey delayed in some way (including myself). Oh but it is ok because it's easy to get around Cardiff without a car, so that must apply to that tiny part of Wales that isn't Cardiff, too.

We moved to Wales several years ago- if we’d known that the. various legislations that are coming into force, including the 20 mph speed limit, we would have stayed across the border . If we had enforcement of the current speed limits there would be no need for this new law. I witnessed someone doing 42 mph in a 30 limit last week( as measured by a roadside monitor)- surely this is what needs to be tackled?

This is all just words, unless you present actual figures on how fast buses are going right now in the real world, on routes that will have a lowered speed limit, and how many journeys would actually be constrained by the new limit and how many where the bus rarely makes it over 20mph anyway in an urban setting.

Rubbish

The solution: more bypasses...

The major consideration is the £36 million the scheme is going to cost, with no actual 100% proven benefits, when the Welsh NHS is in a state of total collapse in most Health areas. There is just ONE dermatology Doctor for the whole of the West area of Betsi Cadwaldwr and no waiting list appointments are being dealt with, as the one Doctor is fully committed addressing the most URGENT of cases. The current wait for a basal cell carcinoma excision is TWO years. In my opinion Mark Drakeford should be ashamed of himself. His spending of £36 million on the 20mph scheme, when many people in Wales are facing disabling and possibly fatal or life changing waits, for NHS treatment is a disgrace.

Cardiff bus are an absolute disaster. Unreliable, expensive and infrequent. Impossible to work, shop and socialise using the bus service so a car is essential. 20mph is likely to cause more traffic jams, more use of the brakes and consequently more pollution. Well done Drakeford.

The effect of not reducing speed in buit up areas is human lives. People who put a price on human lives have a lot to answer for. Stop making capital out of things that WILL save lives!

Your rev counter will tell you.

Welsh Government should be ashamed

General higher, cars are not geared to cruise at 32km/h, so need to be in lower gear. In London also found that nearly all speed limiting devices have to be set at 30km/h (18mph) because they can only do it to nearest metric round number

I haven't caught a bus for 40 years, why would I? The only time I used a train was for work on the Bristol Paddington route, and likewise work paid for planes from Bristol to Schipol and Edinburgh. 20mph in cities with ULEZ zones is immaterial to me, I will never visit them. EV's are not exempt from the speed limits described as being there to reduce pollution, so that logic has gone out of the window. I use mail order to get anything now, so the retail shops don't get my money any more, nor do the car parking companies. I travel to England regularly, the 20mph signs are all over the place, but no one pays much attention to them.

It's been well known for a long time that cars run far less effeciently at 20mph than 30.

Yet another reason not to go to wales. I would say it's the most unpleasent place you could not want to visit in the western world.

Labour Governments always ruin business and when business are ruined jobs follow Get Labour out before it's to late

Who are the dumb b'ds who vote labour because this is the sort of stupid ideas they will keep coming up with!

Let's all go green and travel in second gear and push out mutch more pollution, this welsh government makes me sick, Labour have so mutch power in Wales they ignore the wishes of the people it's time to vote them out give them a shock.i don't care who gets in but vote this lot out

This can't possibly be a good move. I was stuck behind 3 vehicles in one of the new 20mph zones. By the time id got to the end of the village (about 2 miles long) there was a very long train of vehicles behind me. Once more, a gentleman waiting to cross the road with his dog was clearly getting annoyed. The omisions from the all the bumper to bumper cars does not disperse as quick and chances are if you've got your car window down as I had, those omissions enter the car, do I now have to drive with my window's closed? Oh and another point to make, it was just after 1pm so this wasnt rush hour peak travel time. Get a grip council/s most drivers drive carefully though towns and villages, 20mph speeds are a farce. I feel it's just another way of highway robbery to boost your coffers just like ULEZ, rant over....

By the number of comments these articles generate Tories must think 20mph limits as the best donkey to mount in the run up to the next general election derby. Everything the Tory government is responsible for is either on stop or going backwards so no-one should be surprised. There's an obvious anti-devolution sentiment going on with this issue also. Desperation by the Conservative and Unionist Party aka Never knowingly on the right side of History Party.

All the criticism from people about 20 M P H speed limit i do not like it either but lets get facts there are councils in England both Tory and Labour have introduced them the former Mayor of Bristol on G M T V this morning 20 mph was introduced there in 2010 i just googled it and its True the tory press making a mountain out of this its been and going on in Jolly old England as well

This is all a bit of a storm in a teacup to me. The 20mph limit works well in London..

It wont make any difference as you can still drive at higher speeds on a motorway or a road

I've just received the leaflet! On it's cover, a cartoon sketch of the idealists little bubble around their own house; one car and six pedestrians, a couple chatting on a street corner (obstructing the view) one assisting a person in a wheel chair. all suggest that these people will all be able to travel about town much more safely, with even less responsibility for learning safe behaviour and consideration, after all, it's the cars driving on roads which make it so dangerous for them isn't it? Well that's what the welsh government think about the intelligence of their people. What's missing on the leaflet cartoon sketch are the cyclists swerving around the pedestrians without an ounce of care, and the kid trying to get the best speed with their electric scooter on the road. I guess the artist was distracted! This is the start of breeding generations of idiots, who are not expected to learn, as they progress from bicycles to their first cars, they won't have been taught or learned much about using roads and footways with care and responsibility, after all, previous accidents must all have been caused by a maximum speed limit of 30mph in these areas! Accidents happen at all speeds, and are mostly the result of a person in charge of a vehicle (or other road users), acting dangerously, carelessly, losing awareness, taking risks, failing to anticipate potential risks. Cyclists and pedestrians also cause accidents which may involve motor vehicles The whole population needs refresher training, speeding fines won't do that! Here's my bubble now- I live in a side street in north wales, parked cars, lots of driveways from which someone may emerge without getting a good look, occasional cyclists, pedestrians and possibly young children playing. The Maximum speed limit is/was 30mph, I know that driving on this road at that speed is generally not safe and certainly won't approach that maximum speed. This is the type of road which justifies the restrictions, but it isn't necessary! because it is so obvious that it wouldn't be safe to do so much of the time. My mind has evolved to a level where it can think outside this personal bubble- It will be okay on small side residential streets, but major routes in, out and around towns will be affected badly. I wasn't one of the NIMBY 63% of people who "support your lowered speed limit where they live". they just want quieter roads like the leaflet cartoon sketch, and the impression of reduced pollution (driving at 20mph uses lower gears, consumes more fuel and results in more noise and emissions, especially where large vehicles accelerate). No I'm not an anti cyclist, I have two bicycles, one to commute to work in combination with trains. The other to use for pleasure and health road cycling. I don't expect drivers to queue behind me because they can't pass with that stupid guidance instead of depending on care and consideration. If safe, I wave them to pass or slow down and move closer to the kerb to allow traffic to continue flowing and making progress. Now Welsh Government, How are you going to uphold the rules fairly and correctly? I suggest that the first stage would to be fostering understanding and compliance of the real idiots before they evolve to driving motor vehicles.