The debate: #MeToo and the Welsh national movement

I usually, when reading posts here, see arguments from both sides and accept the logic of what's being said from the writers viewpoint even if I disagree with the writer. I haven't read the whole piece yet, only Dylan Llyr's part so far, but felt the need to comment immediately. His argument that 'What feminists actually want is quite simple, which is for men to stop harassing them' is laughable in it's simplicity. It suggests that it's only men who don't have a clear understanding of what is the 'boundary between what is acceptable and the inappropriate when interacting with a woman'. Is he really saying that some women, a minority, don't take the boundary ridiculously the other way when someone complains that some bloke put his hand on my knee thirty years ago and I want him hung, drawn and quartered for it. Those women are a minority as I say but it's also a fact that men who treat women wrongly are a minority also and the vast majority of us treat women with the respect they deserve.

Aled's article on Golwg and now on here speak so much sense and represent the view of the majority. As a woman, I think #MeToo is nothing but digital hysteria and needs to stop. Da iawn Aled - there is absolutely nothing in your article above that people can reasonably disagree with.

"But let’s not forget that women have soft power at their disposal, i.e their femininity, their sexual allure and their attractiveness which can sometimes level the playing field somewhat." Haha! Those poor helpless men at the beck and call of their hormones, unable to resist the siren call of a fluttering eyelash. Are we talking about grown-ups here?

Maybe would have been nice to hear from some actual women in this debate, but hey. Strong editorial skills here, nation.cymru! ;)

“victimhood for status”? This kind of language betrays a shocking lack of empathy for the people who have had the courage to speak out about their trauma. “convenient scapegoats.” Scapegoats for whom? If we cannot hold men accountable for their own behaviour, whom should we be holding accountable? The very notion of ‘soft power’ is incredibly insulting. The idea that a woman should be content to demean herself by using her sexuality to achieve her goals demonstrates just how unlevel the playing field is. I am not a ‘female,’ I am a woman and I don’t want soft power, I want equality. I want to be treated with the same respect that you would treat a man.

Right under the title "Alt-right", appears this sentence: "there is a very misogynistic flavour to the anti-establishment, populist movement that has taken hold within Welsh nationalism recently." At whom, I wonder, is this double-blow aimed? It's disgusting, and backed up with absolutely nothing. It's just another attempt to smear, and it won't work. What a hatchet job. This is why, Ifan, both you and this site - the blog that Leanne never had - are fast losing all credibility.

I'd agree with Aled Gwyn Job that we need a proper discussion on this important matter. His original blog seemed reasonable and did not warrant the tirade that it engendered. Even the first of the two articles today have not managed to engage constructively with the issues; Dylan Llyr's piece can be cut down to name calling - if you dare to question our view then you are a misogynist and taking the gateway drug that leads to fascism. This is not helpful. At stake here are important issues of the mistreatment of women and our justice system, The #metoo is suggesting changes to our basic ideas of fairness and two of the foundations of our system of justice. Firstly it challenges the idea of "the presumption of innocence", substituting the presumption of guilt - If we are always to believe the accuser why go through all the inconvenience of a trail ? Secondly it undermines the principle that we all can expect "equal justice under law". To give different attitudes, on account of gender (or any other factor), to those involved in legal disputes means we are not "equal in the eyes of the law". These are not trivial matters but part of the base of a fair, free and civilised society. It is, I fear, because some people appreciate that they are tampering with these principles that they will not brook any debate and would prefer to respond with blustering, brow-beating name calling to try and silence any pesky critics who might try and counsel for caution in these ill thought out campaigns

I'm dismayed by the absurd comments on here that #metoo is some sort of plot. Harassment and assault of women are widespread, if you don't think that's true then you simply aren't listening to women. I'd love to see actual women write about this on here and hope they aren't put off by some of these deluded comments.

The issue for me is about natural justice, due process and duty of care. We’ve had some concept of natural justice since Roman times but it seems there are too many cases were natural justice is being overridden, and too often by some internet mob. You have third sector organisations who give non-judgmental support only to women. That means these organisation will believe anything you tell them and support you in your accusations. That’s completely inconsistent with natural justice, where if they say someone is guilty of doing something it’s taken as a given. I’m concerned that non-judgmental support is leading to good fathers losing access to their children through malicious complaints, because no such support exists for men. Same goes for Safer Wales, whose Dyn project was recently the subject of a ruling by the Equality and Human Rights Commission. The Dyn project was told to stop discriminating against male victims of domestic violence by screening all male callers to their helpline as potential perpetrators, while not doing that for women callers. The police failing to release essential evidence in rape cases is another serious issue. We need to tackle discrimination, violence and abuse wherever we encounter it. Women have been on the receiving end more but that doesn’t mean we should shout down those who recognise there are areas where men need additional support and that women can be perpetrators too. We should be able to talk about these things without pitting gender against gender, however people define themselves, against each other. If we want real equality we need to recognise that men and women do terrible things to each other and offer support to all victims. We also need to hold power to account wherever we find it. Many of these third sector organisations are very powerful. They receive public money, they’re actively engaged in politics and legislation and so they can’t be beyond scrutiny for fear of any backlash, including being tarred as a misogynist.

"We should be able to talk about these things without pitting gender against gender, however people define themselves, against each other. If we want real equality we need to recognise that men and women do terrible things to each other and offer support to all victims." Wise words. Unfortunately #MeToo is part of a wider tendency on the Left (I won't call it a plot, but it's certainly a mindset) to slice and dice society down into competing interest groups and then set them against each other. It's a form of 'divide and rule', and all too often it boils down to mere bullying.

Well said, Aled! Absolutely spot on. Some people (e.g. feminists) seem to completely disregard the fact that some women take advantage of said power structures (whether in Hollywood or elsewhere) purely for their own personal gain, e.g. promotion. This happens everywhere in all walks of life and everyone knows it.

Oh god nothing worse than virtue signalling feminists or feminazis. Amazing how they hate Ring Brids or Grid Girls but have little to say about women dressing in hijab or burkha. Funny that...

Ifan: I applaud the sacrifices you must make to edit this website. `Diolch yn fawr o waelod calon. I am a retired schoolteacher. Throughout my career I regarded all my colleagues as equals and this issue was foreign to me until quite recently. I condemn all those who treat women or men in any disparaging way. It has no place in our society. Men and women are born equal and should remain so.

spot on DylanLlyr.

Dylan Llyr's piece sums up this socialist, right-on and morally superior approach which seems to have infected modern feminism as well. Two cheeks of the same ass in fact. This anarchist wants nothing to do with this type of socialist thought-control. It may amaze some, but I actually find more in common now with some elements of conservative thinking. At least they believe in individuals as free agents, and don't try to moralize and shame people to fit in with a top-down, 'we're always right' way of looking at life. Anarchist, Conservative, Welsh Nash. We live in crazy times......

Amazing how this 'non subject' attracts so much attention. Aled Gwyn Job's original comments appear to be well thought out, balanced and fair - without being discriminatory to either gender. A bit of balanced common sense (a rare attribute in this upside down and inside out Anglo American world we live in). Sorry to say, to the contrary, Dylan Llŷr's contribution appears to be a regurgitated flavour of the month drivel by a naive person who seems to believe and echo things he hears and reads from the mainstream (false) media. Wakey wakey Dylan, your perception of reality is - I believe - skewed. What you don't seem to realise is that all this is a rouse, and quite a successful 'divide and conquer' tactic to pitch the genders against one another - for reasons better known to those who work hard at controlling us from the shadows. Believe nothing, and question everything you are told by the propagandists is my advice to you. It is a perception deception of the grandest order. Take a leaf from Aled's book and brush up on your common sense.

"The essential point I made was that modern feminism seems to have evolved into a narrow ideological way of experiencing and interpreting the world." The essential point you made was that the Mil and mainstream media outlets have described feminism as a narrow, ideological way of interpreting.......Surely that was what you meant. My daughter is a feminist. I am, so are my brothers and uncles and cousins. Mum was but is dead. My grandparents weren't. My aunties are and so are most of my daughters friends and parents. We know we're feminists because when asked the question "Do women get a systematic raw deal in this world and should we all do something about it?" We answer "yes they do, let's attempt a change" Doesn't seem to be going too far "the other way" or indeed even far enough. I see you arguing over which non-existent viewpoint is more important which has as much relevance as arguing over the meaning and relationships of the new stromtrooper designs in Star Wars and what they mean for a social order in a non-existent galaxy far, far away and a long time ago. Grow up

Time to move on bois, i have been asking women of all ages and backgrounds who i meet in the business in west Wales during this week what do you think of #Metoo - - the majority thinks its has gone out of all proportion and many never heard of it, because they've got lives to live as independent women living in the real world . I would say its a fair reflection across ages/class/background . Arguments about transgender and metoo have become comedic fodder , and that's not because we are ignorant hambones, anti feminist, anti trans, anti this that and the other and hate wimmin/men/gays/vegans/godlfish , its just that most people have a modicum of commonsense and fairness... This business is making people into laughing stocks and diminishes people who really suffer. I think i have to give up following social media cos people have lost the plot and i would rather thht everybody was just tidy to eveyrbody else.