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Opinion

So Welsh Labour, what’s Plan B?

By David Owens
Prime Minister Keir Starmer and First Minister Eluned Morgan - Image: Welsh Government

Llew Gruffudd

Wales is a state in decline.

Health and social care in crisis.

Poor education standards

Child poverty.

Lack of affordable housing.

Cuts to local services.

Fuel poverty.

Welsh families, working families, relying on food banks to survive..

Town centres disappearing.

And there’s the potholes

This in spite of the Welsh Labour government describing the 2017 Devolution Settlement [ the latest] as A good and long-term settlement.

 And then confusingly, a Welsh Government Minister in a Senedd debate just three years later described the same settlement as not fit for purpose.

So, what is the Welsh Labour governments plan to reverse this dire situation that Wales is experiencing.?

To date, it has been to shuffle the money grant from Westminster around and as that hasn’t worked, blame the nasty Tory Government in Westminster.

That, Welsh Labour, is not a plan.

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Plan A

However, after having no Plan, now Plan A can be put into place.

The election of a friendly, cooperative, compassionate Labour government in Westminster.

All they have to do is cosy up to them, they are after all the same clan and truckloads of money will come down the M4.

And then all that's left is to divvy it up and they will have thirty or so extra Senedd members to help them in this arduous task.

We recently saw signs of this new cosy relationship, with the recent visit by the Prime Minister.

There was the photo shot of Sir Kier and The Wales First Minister, sitting in their comfy chairs, smiling their friendly smiles, while Sir Kier told her of his plans to further exploit Wales through its energy resources and The First Minister in turn thanking him for his kindness

Cosy

The Welsh First Minister referred to this new cosy relationship in a recent interview,, when she said there were good signs of the new relationship with the settlement of the public sector pay.

No, First Minister.

The way it works is that Westminster makes an agreement on the English public sector pay and Wales then gets a population share.

It is a constitutional arrangement, not a special relationship.

Just to point out, for she failed to. The same special relationship has led to thousands of Welsh pensioners losing winter fuel payment.

But the Prime Minister is listening, she said.

Just like he’s listening to the English regional mayors, the trade unions, Scotland and N Ireland First Ministers, business leaders, the NHS and anyone else who manages to get within earshot.

He is listening but promising nothing.

However, when you haven't had a plan for 25 years, clutching at straws seems a step forward.

Westminster not playing ball.

The problem is that Labour in Westminster doesn't seem to be buying into Plan A.

Call it ungrateful, for Labour in Wales did their bit in the UK election.

However Welsh Labour can only blame themselves. It was written in the runes that Plan A was a non-starter.

A Labour government in Westminster has never transferred to benefits for Wales

Gordon Brown, a recent convert to spreading democracy, wrote Welsh Labour's Plan A out of the script in his Constitution report for the Labour Party.

The Westminster Labour government’s vision of federalism, only extends to a limited elevation of the powers of the English regions and any finance, little as it is, to that end.

Indeed, Professor Pain, Senior Fellow at the Institute of Government, commented on how similar this Labour Constitutional plan was to Michael Gove's Tory Levelling Up White Paper.

He also said that given the low level of funding, it is just as likely to fail.

The UK nations, said the Prime Minister, have enough.

As far as a general UK economic uplift.

The twin prophets of doom, KIer Starmr and Rachel Reeves, have put a very big damper on that far into the future.

Nor does history help.

Bottom of the pile

Wales, under the Westminster Labour governments of Tony Blair and Gorden Brown, were still bottom of the pile of all the UK nations and indeed most regions, in any social welfare or educational measurement.

There have, in Wales, been recent increase in joint photos shots, announcements of investment, jobs

Cross border collaboration with the NHS. They say.

So Welsh patients can join waiting lists in England and English patients can join waiting lists in Wales.

You will have noticed the wearing of hard hats throughout these outdoor events.

That's because of all the pigs flying over Wales at the moment.

There has been nothing in the change of Westminster government, other than warm words, to indicate a halt to a continued slide into more of the same and its consequences, austerity, economic stagnation, more unnecessary suffering from hospital treatment waiting lists, continued failing of Welsh children's education

So Welsh Labour. What is Plan B?

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65 comments

Annibendod

Plan B is that any of them with a shred of moral decency should resign the Labour whip and campaign for a Plaid Cymru government in 2026. Perhaps they can look to Rosie Duffield if they are in search of a backbone.

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Lyn E

Labour's failures are not just a Welsh problem. They hurt people across the UK.

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Annibendod

If I were English I'd vote Green. I'm Welsh though, so I'll vote Plaid and try and make things better for Wales.

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Lyn E

I understand that. I voted Green in the general election as that was the recommendation of campaigners for Palestine for my constituency. In another seat, I might have voted Plaid.

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CapM

Cymru's had to endure Labour's failures continually for the past 25 years. That hasn't" hurt people across the UK" but is a particularly "Welsh problem".

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Lyn E

Many parts of England have been hit hard by neoliberal policies over the past half century. Even London has widespread poverty. Do you think England has no pensioners with fuel costs or families with more than two children?

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In reply to Lyn E

CapM

You stated that "Labour’s failures are not just a Welsh problem. They hurt people across the UK. " Having the fact that we in Cymru have had to contend with "Labour's failures" for 25 years pointed out, you switch to "neoliberal policies". Perhaps you could suggest what political party should get our support in order to counter "Labour failures" and "neoliberal policies"?

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In reply to CapM

Lyn E

As we've seen over the past weeks, switching parties doesn't guarantee change. Any party that wants my vote will have to show that they have broken from Thatcherism. I'm listening.

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In reply to Lyn E

CapM

That rules out the the Labour Party and of course the Conservative and Unionist Party If they put up candidates a listening option for you, would appear to be the Trotskyist and Unionist Party (Socialist Workers Party)

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In reply to CapM

Lyn E

Hard to find any party with credible prospects to vote for at present. I was happy to vote Green in the GE as I knew the candidate to be a progressive activist. But the joint Labour-Plaid anti-democratic carve up of imposing closed lists on the Welsh electorate has denied us the opportunity to voting for candidates on their individual merits. All power to the party hierarchies.

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In reply to Lyn E

Annibendod

Why do you presume that those of us who advocate for Welsh Statehood do not care for those English folk who endure poverty? Moreover, what good do you think we do those folk by abdicating our right and responsibility for self government in the name of a claimed solidarity that goes by the name of masochism in any other regard?

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In reply to Annibendod

Lyn E

I was not presuming anything, simply pointing out that Labour’s failures are not just a Welsh problem. If aggressive neoliberalism remains dominant at Westminster, then Wales will find it difficult to exercise meaningful self government, with or without formal statehood.

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In reply to Lyn E

CapM

Are you a member of the Tooting Popular Front.

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In reply to CapM

Lyn E

Never been to Tooting. If you want to grasp the difficulties a small country near a hostile power can face, read up on the history of Central America. ‘So far from God, so close to the USA’.’.

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In reply to Lyn E

Mab Meirion

If you were familiar with Tooting then you may have heard of the 'Battle of Maybury St' where a small community lost the battle to save their homes from being demolished to become a hospital car park...

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In reply to Mab Meirion

Lyn E

Thank you. I didn't know that case. I am heavily involved in helping communities in the Cardiff area respond to corporate planning applications.

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In reply to Lyn E

CapM

Tooting Popular Front featured in a TV comedy series about a hapless and ineffectual left wing class warrior, Wolfie Smith.

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In reply to Lyn E

CapM

What you need to grasp is that Cymru is a small western European country with a well established democracy sharing an group of islands with other well established democracies. What you need to drop is the ludicrous suggestion that Cymru is a potential 'Banana republic' saved from that fate by being part of a an England dominated UK whose economic doctrine you despise yet prefer that Cymru is shackled to.

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In reply to CapM

Lyn E

Sorry, but I do not understand the logic of arguing that England oppresses Cymru but then assuming we would be treated benevolently as a formally independent state. I do not have your confidence in the British/English ruling class that has dominated and exploited people around the world for hundreds of years. An independent Cymru would still be subject to the pressures and demands of global capitalism.

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In reply to Lyn E

CapM

More strawman arguments. No one is making the assumption that England would treat an independent Cymru "benevolently" No one is saying that an independent Cymru would not be subject to the pressures and demands of global capitalism. The situation is that the British/English do not treat a Cymru that is part of the UK fairly never mind "benevolently" now. The situation is that the British/English ruling class dominates and exploits Cymru now. But you prefer that situation to continue - i )in the forlorn hope that the UK under Britain/England rejects global capitalism, ii) with vexation that an independent Cymru will not generate your personal utopia.

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In reply to CapM

Lyn E

You keep giving contradictory arguments. In your previous comment, you said, "Cymru is a small western European country with a well established democracy sharing an group of islands with other well established democracies." Now you've reverted to "the British/English ruling class dominates and exploits Cymru now". Make up your mind. Independence for Cymru would provide us with more decision making on some matters but by no means all. We would still have to act within constraints from the demands of global capital and an English Westminster. Welsh citizens would lose certain rights by becoming foreigners to England. England will not disappear. Whether or not Cymru separates, England would still be the dominant power on this island and we would have to live with that.

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In reply to Lyn E

CapM

Life is not binary. Insisting that England would be a belligerent neighbour is, strangely for a self described internationalist, basically saying that the English are bastards! Paradoxically the same view as ultra Welsh nationalists have! Everything you say points to Unionism being your preference rather than an independent Cymru. There's nothing wrong per se in that choice. You've been offered the opportunity to make a case for Unionism but like so many others haven't. Canada has to live with the USA but based on the arguments you use it's not 'pragmatic' that it is not part of the USA.

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In reply to CapM

Lyn E

Indeed, life and nationality are not binary. Which is precisely why I have no intention of advocating Unionism.

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In reply to Lyn E

j91968

Well done on holding your end up against such personal animus. These Nation Cymru comments boyos hardly ever play the ball, they prefer the shins of the player they are marking.

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In reply to j91968

CapM

"boyos" Says volumes Explains everything.

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In reply to Lyn E

Llew Gruffudd.

Please enlighten me as to why Wales cannot exercise a meaningful self government, whatever form of government is next door.

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In reply to Llew Gruffudd.

CapM

I think the only way that Lyn E would accept self government would be if Cymru were part of a UBSR -Union of Britannic Socialist Republics. Our "self government" being of a particularly Soviet flavour.

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In reply to CapM

j91968

UBSR? You just made that UP...! Invent a party or a movement and then claim your interlocutor is already a member. What nonsense. I wish I could type something stronger than "nonsense" but I think people will get my drift

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In reply to j91968

CapM

I suggest something Lyn E might support and he doesn't object.

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In reply to Llew Gruffudd.

Lyn E

It depends what you mean by 'self-government'. My primary objection is not to independence as such, which offers a mix of advantages and disadvantages, but to the isolationist mindset that fantasises that an independent Cymru would have almost unlimited freedom to do as we choose. The modern world is not like that. We would inevitably be constrained by our unavoidable need to engage with the external world and - like it or not - England would loom very large in that as a simple fact of geography. Our long land border with a much larger neighbour would be a major factor in Welsh life and decision-making. We would, for example, find that we had to conform to certain Westminster rules if we wished to sell into English markets, much as the UK is finding with regard to the EU despite Brexit. Or to maintain freedom of movement. What I really want to see is how self-government would make a difference. For example, on policing and justice, which MSs across both Labour and Plaid Cymru would like to see under the control of Senedd not Westminster. I agree. But what I am not hearing from politicians from any party is how that could end the racism, sexism and corruption that has led to many miscarriages of justice. That's the kind of practical discussion we need.

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In reply to Lyn E

CapM

In your opinion which UK party are you hearing regarding ending of the racism, sexism and corruption that has led to many miscarriages of justice?

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In reply to CapM

Lyn E

From none of the leaders of the major UK or Welsh parties. But Jeremy Corbyn and some other MPs have honourable records on this.

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In reply to Lyn E

CapM

So you'll have to hope that such a candidate stands in your constituency and also hope that they are a British nationalist (Unionist)

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In reply to Lyn E

Llew Gruffudd.

I must admit that I find your response confusing. If you have read the piece and others I have contributed, it is clear that I regard self government, as Wales being a sovereign state. Further, as a free market, internationalist nation. Why would you assume that an Independent Wales would be isolationist, it makes no sense. You also misjudge when you again assume, that we who advocate Independence are ignorant of the fact that Wales, like all other nations, will not be subject to international rules. You also seem confused when you allude to the remaining UK [UKr]. imposing onerous regulations and barriers, while at the same time express your fears of, in your words, a neoliberal UK government over the border, It is a contradiction, neoliberalism is about the removal of trade barriers and the reduction of regulation. Indeed the World Trade Organisation, to which the UK belongs and which an Independent Wales would also belong, expressly forbids discriminatory action. Even the UK doesn't have free rein.

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In reply to Lyn E

Llew Gruffudd.

My original reply seems to have gone astray, so here goes again. I must admit to finding your response confusing For clarity, My definition of a self governing Wales as a sovereign state, free market and internationalist.is Why you should equate Wales Independence with isolationism makes no sense. As does your assumption , that we, who advocate for an Independent Wale, lack understanding that Wales, as with all nations,are subject to international regulation. I am particularly at a loss at your assertion that Wales would be subject to onerous barriers and regulation, seemingly at the whim of the remaining UK [ UKr ]. At the same time you expressed a fear of the conditions imposed by, in your words, a neoliberal government in Westminster. That is somewhat of a contradiction, as neoliberal philosophy is about the lowering of barriers and the loosening of regulations. Indeed, the World Trade Organisation, to which the UK belongs and to which Wales will belong on Independence, expressly forbids the type of discrimination to which you allude Even the mighty UK doesn't have free rein.

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In reply to Llew Gruffudd.

Lyn E

I would argue that neoliberalism has been more about redirecting state power than removing regulations. Trade unions, for example, are now far more tightly controlled. We can call this post-Thatcherism or rampant capitalism if you prefer. The central question over Welsh independence is neither size (an obsession for some) nor poverty (Wales would face problems but a case can be made that policies for our own needs could help overcome those). The core issue is our relationship with the wider world and in particular that with England. It is the failure to recognise and deal with this that I see as an 'isolationist mentality'. It is not that anyone thinks that Wales could become self-sufficient. You are quite right that the UK does not have free rein. Indeed, I would question what 'independence' really means in the 21st century, although states still have certain distinct if limited powers. Rather, there is a naivety that assumes that many if not all of the benefits within the UK, such as free trade and movement, would be guaranteed. They would not. Perhaps international relations should now be described as post-neoliberal. Certainly the assumptions commonly made a generation ago no longer hold. Barriers are now rising rather than falling. You mention the WTO but it is proving powerless to restrain tariff and technology conflict between the US and China. The Schengen pact is cracking with Germany reintroducing passport controls. Constraints are not necessarily deliberately imposed. Product standards are an example. If Wales wished to sell to England then it would have to comply with rules set in Westminster with little influence over those. In many areas self-governance would be quite limited. My conclusion from this is that the futures of Wales and England are going to be tightly bound, whatever the constitutional arrangements. Hence, we have a strong interest in building UK-wide alliances for progressive policies. Focusing on independence - a remote prospect at present - distracts from that.

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In reply to Lyn E

CapM

"Rather, there is a naivety that assumes that many if not all of the benefits within the UK, such as free trade and movement, would be guaranteed. They would not." Again a strawman argument " Hence, we have a strong interest in building UK-wide alliances for progressive policies. Focusing on independence – a remote prospect at present – distracts from that." Hooray we're to be part of a Grand Plan! Thanks for including us.

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In reply to CapM

Lyn E

You will find it more effective to disagree using facts and reason, if you can. Yes I want alliances. Better to find friends than make enemies.

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In reply to Lyn E

CapM

"Yes I want alliances. Better to find friends than make enemies." You will find it more effective using facts and reason, if you can..

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In reply to Lyn E

Annibendod

I think you're presuming a lot Lyn. The things I raised in the comment to which you replied for one. Then you added another in your reply. You appear to be tied to the unionist orthodoxy when it comes to understanding the UK. Almost every comment you make is along the lines of, "We won't be able to because of England." I wonder how the Irish might feel about such a mindset. One thing I can say for certain is true ... right now we can't because we're tied to England. Weight of numbers in this union and its constitution. Simply takes our political agency and drowns it at Westminster. I'm just not prepared to accept that's how it has to be Lyn. Fight man. Fight like hell for something better.

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In reply to Annibendod

Lyn E

I fight every day. I have just completed an open letter to Rebecca Evans MS, on behalf of several environmental organisations, asking her to reject a planning application to build a corporate business park over an ecologically important Site of Special Scientific Interest on the Gwent Levels. I have campaigned for many progressive causes over close to 50 years. But my conceptual framework is socialism not nationalism. The business park I mentioned above is promoted by a Welsh developer seeking his own profit ahead of the needs of people and planet. There are many like him. I feel much closer to English workers and campaigners. Wales is not Ireland. We need to examine our own circumstances. I am in principle neither for nor against independence. But I need to hear a more convincing and realistic case for it. Saying the status quo is bad doesn't suffice. Where is the positive and realistic case showing how, in practice, it would make life better for current and future generations? In prose not poetry.

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In reply to Lyn E

CapM

"Saying the status quo is bad doesn’t suffice. " Refusing to say or being unable to say why the status quo is better also does not suffice. You are in no way unique in this as the utterances or rather lack of by British Nationalists (Unionists) over generations can confirm.

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In reply to CapM

Lyn E

I have never said 'the status quo is better' or even good. It is riddled with exploitation of both people and planet, which is why we need to replace it with something that puts those first. Socialism if you like. I have no interest in a neoliberal neo-colonial Cymru following the dictates of Westminster and large corporations/bankers behind a façade of 'independence'.

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In reply to Lyn E

CapM

"I have no interest in a neoliberal neo-colonial Cymru...." From what you write you have no interest in any sort of Cymru that isn't part of a British socialist state. Given the record of disagreeing and spitting that socialists are prone to. That British socialist state would only get your support if it matched your personal idea of what socialism is. How about in future in order to convince people you make the case for what you want and how it can be achieved rather than just oppose something you don't want.

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In reply to CapM

Lyn E

I don’t share your obsession with nationalism, Welsh, British or any other. In a world of deepening environmental, social and geopolitical crisis, this is very much a secondary question. If it all goes wrong, constitutional niceties will not be top concern for the survivors. But we can make the world a better place for fighting for justice in all its forms, whether social, economic, racial, environmental, global and others, whichever political body we are in. That is what I want. As Nye Bevan said, socialism is the language of priorities.

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In reply to Lyn E

CapM

"If it all goes wrong, constitutional niceties will not be top concern for the survivors." So now the establishment of an independent Cymru could contribute to the advent of a dystopian future for all! Surely you must recognise that in order to support your opinion you're now resorting to scraping the barrel bottom.

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In reply to CapM

Lyn E

Do you read what I write or just glance at it through distorting lenses? I never said, 'the establishment of an independent Cymru could contribute to the advent of a dystopian future for all'. It's simply that promoting the remote prospect of a Welsh state above all other issues offers no answer to immediate and worsening problems. Not so much wrong as irrelevant. As I said, it's a question of priorities.

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In reply to Lyn E

j91968

Distorting lenses are prescribed and fitted as soon as nationalism of any sort is embraced.

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In reply to j91968

CapM

Apart from Unionism which isn't Nationalism. Oh no, never is never was. We're above all that.

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In reply to j91968

Llew Gruffudd.

I feel a little embarrassed, intruding on this almost private, but rather circular set of comments. It appears to me that rather than informing, it is getting further entrenched. I am one of those that that have difficulty seeing straight, it seems, being a supporter of Wales as a sovereign state. I don't however recognise the nationalism that is being described in these comments. The use of nationalism as a derogatory term, isolationist, insular and uncaring of the plight of others, is common for those that oppose Independence for Wales, I don't recognise that nation, and it is bandied around without any supporting evidence. The point is made that many in England are suffering deprivation and of course they are. But to use it to make the point that therefore we in Wales shouldn't emphasise the years deprivation of its own, is illogical. I see that Wales can better itself, I cannot influence the North of England in the same way. Again the point is made that for some reason Wales Independence should be put on the back burner in the fight for international justice etc. What logic says the two are mutually exclusive. With regard to socialism I have no issue with that. If an Independent Wales is to be a socialist state, that is up to the people and for socialists to persuade them of the merits.

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In reply to Llew Gruffudd.

CapM

"I feel a little embarrassed, intruding on this almost private, but rather circular set of comments." Please intrude. I've been on this merry go round way to long.

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In reply to Llew Gruffudd.

Lyn E

I welcome reasoned discussion on this. It need not become acrimonious as long as we all accept that queries are not a pact with the devil. Your headline question 'So Welsh Labour, what’s Plan B?' is very pertinent. My initial response was simply to point out that 'Labour’s failures are not just a Welsh problem. They hurt people across the UK.' Apparently that offended some. I agree Welsh nationalism has been less malign than British nationalism, although small nation nationalism can be vicious when it has power and opportunity, as Israel shows. Demanding Welsh independence need not exclude desiring justice more widely. I have campaigned on many issues alongside good comrades who want both. But I have also met people who treat as hostile anyone querying independence, let alone advocating UK-wide alliances. Such alliances are essential. Plaid Cymru rightly opposes Labour’s policies on the two-cap limit and pensioner fuel allowances. But Wales on its own lacks enough weight to reverse UK-wide policies. To improve lives, not just indulge in hollow rhetoric, we must cooperate with others.

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In reply to Lyn E

Llew Gruffudd.

i am a great believer in alliances and cooperation, especially in the case of a small country. That however doesn't detract from Wales becoming a sovereign state

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In reply to Llew Gruffudd.

Lyn E

In that case, I would be happy to work with you on campaigns of mutual interest while politely keeping my options open on constitutional change and when appropriate making points or asking questions.

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In reply to Lyn E

CapM

"If it all goes wrong, constitutional niceties will not be top concern for the survivors." (my bolding ) Apparently you think that a society comprising of "survivors" is not dystopian. Our conversation has been about "constitutional niceties". My desire for an independent Cymru a " remote prospect" according to you and your desire for the continuance of the status quo leading us to a Union of Britannic Socialist Republics. Presumably you think that is not a remote prospect! . 

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In reply to CapM

Lyn E

I do wish you would read what I write, or at least think while you do so. Humanity faces a number of potentially catastrophic challenges, including environmental collapse, war, and malign AI. Constitutional change for Cymru seems all but irrelevant to these.

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In reply to Lyn E

CapM

"Humanity faces a number of potentially catastrophic challenges, including environmental collapse, war, and malign AI. Constitutional change for Cymru seems all but irrelevant to these." Jeez! You've made dozens of comments on Constitutional change so either you have next to no sense of self awareness. In which you have my sympathy. Or you're a wind up merchant. In which case congratulations for playing me for so long.

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In reply to CapM

Lyn E

I rarely spend much time on speculative argument on future constitutions. Unfortunately, it can be hard to avoid and risks dividing the movement I would like to see emerge for people, peace and planet. In this stream my initial comment simply pointed out that Labour's policies were hurting people across the UK. That triggered a wave of comments, some reasonable, some like yours unable to rise above the level of hostile sarcasm.

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In reply to Annibendod

j91968

Because unless challenged to do so, as above, you never mention "those English who endure poverty". Conversely, not everyone in Wales endures poverty, either, which you also conveniently smudge over. Wales and the Welsh do not suffer uniquely in the UK. Maybe you could pop up to somewhere like the declining urban landscape of NE of England occasionally and have a good look round and chat to a few folk. That might take the edge off your tendency to display a victim mentality a wee bit.

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hdavies15

Plan B ? Was there a plan A ? Just shuffling along making it up week to week. It's what passes for collaborative government in the Barreness' mind.

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Linda Jones

Welsh Labour politicians in both Westminster and the Senedd are failing us. All they seem to be interested in is self promotion and the promotion of their 'party'. They dont represent or promote the interests of Wales or Welsh people. Hopefully Wales will see through them at the next election and vote Plaid.

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Adrian

Plan A is a car crash, and it's been operation in Wales for decades: this is how Labour governments always work out in the real world. Why anyone thought Labour in Westminster would be any more competent than Labour is Wales is beyond me. It's a bit like the 'ah, well that wasn't proper communism' argument: if we keep trying then eventually Labour's governance will work out well - well it won't. Starmer's just Corbyn in a more expensive suit - paid for of course, by someone else.

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Annibendod

Corbyn in a suit? You were doing well up to that point. I'd take Corbyn over Starmer any day of the week.

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