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Opinion

Owning our futures by knowing our now

By Mark Mansfield
Delegates at the conference

Cinzia Yates

I recently attended a short conference organised by the Scottish Independence Commission titled ‘Owning Our Futures’.

As an attendee the conference timetable was frustratingly packed and chaotic, but as an anthropologist, 14 nations trying to give an account of their movements for independence and greater autonomy in 6-minute speeches provided a fascinating insight.

It was incredibly varied, not only the ways in which various movements hope to achieve self-government, but the values and identifiers of nationhood on which their argument for autonomy relies. Trying to sum up why a place should be a nation or autonomous region in six minutes meant relying on very specific and key aspects of the people and history of that nation that may not otherwise be spoken so succinctly.

Conceptually, the conference itself showed the inherent difficulties in claiming and communicating nationhood. While titled ‘owning our futures’, the conference requested the stories of movements up to now; showing how owning our futures means recognising and understanding our pasts before we can begin to look ahead.

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Problematic concept

Organised in collaboration with the International Commission for European Citizens (ICEC), an NGO based in Belgium and concerned with independence movements in Europe, the event entirely focussed on European organisations, but even this was an evidently problematic concept. If Europe meant the EU, then why would Scotland, Wales and  Northumbria have been included? But if it meant the continent of Europe, why include Greenland and the Faroes, who may be legislated by a nation in continental Europe but are not geographically European (which is kind of their point!).

Maybe in this case it was European citizens who are citizens of a continental European country against their will. Perhaps escaping a dominant European state is what brings us all together.

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What makes a nation a nation?

The various movements all had very differing claims to nationhood and wildly different reasons for not being the nation they felt they should be. However, what was a common thread was the concept of nation in opposition. A people who are NOT what their state leaders are and therefore not what they were expected to be.

Greenland and the Faroes did not want to be Danish. They are clearly not Danish. The argument for them being Danish goes back centuries and is impossible to disentangle from huge swathes of history and administrative development. Greenland spoke to an ethnic identity, a history of ethnic cleansing carried out through means as abhorrent as forced sterilisation.

The people of Greenland wanted their identity as Inuit reclaimed. However, others had a far more recent and less violent story. South Tyrol was a region made part of Italy during the reorganisation of Europe after the second world war. Having German speakers in Italy does seem a bit peculiar, and it should be simple enough to recognise that that was an odd idea and therefore put it right. Flanders had an even less contentious argument that seemed mainly economic. Belgium is essentially split into two, predominantly by language, and the Flemish want to use their own money for Flanders. They are Flemish.

Spain sits somewhere between these two extremes. Having been made up of various kingdoms, the unification of Spain forced disparate cultures, with disparate languages and identities into a single unit with a purposeful attempt to create a single ‘Spain’ and a single ‘Spanishness’.

Franco purposefully plucked popular aspects of culture from across the nation to create an ersatz Spanishness that represents no one. And that Spanishness was forced on peoples whose nations did not adhere to administrative borders. While Galicia has an argument for nationhood based on the use of Gallego, a Celtic identity and a very distinct culture, The Basques are forced into Spanishness and Frenchness, causing a constant internal struggle despite being neither. And then of course there are the islands. Islands are wholes.

They may be cut off by the elements. So it seems obvious to have them have control of themselves. Sicily, the Faroes and Sardinia do not have to make much of an argument to claim nationhood. (As a Manxy having no land borders has made our arguments and claims to identity much easier. It’s either Manx or it’s in the sea.)

All of these arguments, these tensions, these oppositions; these historic and recent battles against larger dominant ‘others’ ran through the galloping presentations like a raging river. It dragged in aspects of identity and language and economics as it flowed into one great call for self-preservation and escape.

Except one.

The Welsh spokesperson, Gwern Gwynfil, a man not unknown to wax lyrical about the virtues of Wales, chose not to speak of otherness, but to speak of Welshness. He, somewhat unsurprisingly if you’ve heard him speak before, turned to Richard Price to speak for Wales. To speak of liberty through democracy and how that liberty, based on the beliefs of an 18th century Welshman from a small village, spread across the globe and became the central tenet of new nations. (Admittedly that new nation was America and that may not be going so well right now, but the point stood).

Gwern Gwynfil

While still focussing on a historical aspect of Welshness, this was an outward looking concept of why Wales is a nation. Not an argument in opposition. And, as an anthropologist at heart, at an event in which I’d normally be analysing music and costume, it led me to start thinking about ‘owning our future’ and how we express our right to nationhood by recognising and enacting our Welshness.

Can there be a Wales without Welshness in 2024?

And so I started to look around the room for the ‘-ness’ of the other delegations. The things we do to enact our identity every day. Only two of the delegates were wearing anything that would give away their national identity, and even then only if you knew a bit about national costume. Names were not an automatic indicator as many were named in the dominant language of their nation. Language was a biggy, although somewhat ironically the conference was held entirely in English with no little difficulty in dealing with non-English speakers and their names by the organisers.

Only one delegate chose to speak only in their native tongue, Gallego, with others choosing a few token sentences to bookend their speech. The chair, a Scottish indy activist and journalist, seemed to lament the lack of a Scottish language to unify the claim to Scottish independence, which, along with her difficulty in pronouncing names and organisations, caused a few to bristle. Networking discussions took place in common languages (Spanish, French, English) and it was clear that many delegates were unaware of other minority languages and their struggles.

As the hosts, the SIC made a small effort to enact their ‘-ness’. There was no Gaelic spoken, but there was a scratch ceili band playing celtic favourites while the delegates were offered haggis, neeps and tatties and a wee totty of whiskey. I’m still trying to work out how I feel about a piper playing the Proclaimers on Gaita and wearing an EU flag hat as we entered the event. But otherwise, there was no nod to culture or Scottishness. Even networking was arranged to take place in a sports bar.

I grew up with the Manx saying ‘gyn chengey, gyn cheer’ (no language, no country) and while I now recognise ‘language’ is far too strict a concept, I do believe that to claim and achieve nationhood you need a cultural distinctness to hang that claim on. In the late 19th century, that was costume and folk dancing and songs and language. But today it has to be more than a few words in your language, a bagpipe and some haggis.

What is our ‘ness?

I spoke to some of the delegates about this, and what their ‘-ness’ was and they began to become animated. Yes, it’s our history (ancient or recent, bloody or otherwise) but it’s all the small things we do that make us who we are. It’s the overlapping constellations of experience and expression that eventually become a whole. Its daps not plimsols; its knowing that whoever you speak to when learning Welsh you’ll get ‘milk’ wrong; its bristling when the far right try and use Muslims in Cardiff bay to sow division; its knowing that trains are pointless; its having to dress up in a cheap and slightly uncomfortable Welsh costume for St David’s Day at school; its supporting anyone but England in the rugby; its half ‘n half; it’s resigning yourself to your whole life always being ever so slightly damp; it’s inclusivity; it’s Italian cafes; it’s knowing about the miners strikes; it’s rissoles; it’s hating Ryan Reynolds while being secretly proud of Wrexham; it’s only listening to half of any announcement; it’s nodding politely while Americans talk about Tom Jones; it’s speaking Welsh; it’s not speaking Welsh; it’s not switching to Welsh in the pub when the English come in; it’s Penscynor and Dan yr Ogof; it’s knowing that Aberystwyth might as well be another planet if you can’t drive; its doing a tiny ‘yay’ when you see the ‘Welcome to Wales/Croeso i Gymru’ sign; it's loving/hating Gavin & Stacey; it’s Goldie Lookin’ Chain; it’s Dafydd Iwan and it’s myriad other tiny things that make you feel you’re at home when someone else expresses them. It is all those things, all the values of freedom of expression, of language, of inclusivity, of workers rights that those things encompass that makes Wales a nation.

Wales is on the right track with showing that ‘liberty’ is part of Welshness. We cannot as a nation exist solely in opposition to a dominant other. We need to be the dominant us. But how do we capture it? How do we use it as a unifying concept to achieve nationhood and therefore better outcomes that are better suited to our Welshness?

How do we create a narrative of Welshness that we can display in six minutes? Until we have that, until we have some unified idea of what it is to be Welsh, some common concepts that are all about what we are and not what we are not, we cannot start to fully realise the argument for nationhood. But once we have that argument, once we know what we are, new ideas on how we manage that economically and politically will come easy.

We may be big enough, we may be rich enough, but are we Welsh enough?

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34 comments

Annibendod

Feeling Welsh isn't the problem. Fearing we can't do without Westminster and its economic clout is the problem. Worse is our own self loathing, that damned inferiority complex. And we're great at fighting. We fight amongst ourselves instead of fighting for ourselves. Untill we jettison the bs narratives surrounding our nation we'll not succeed. Frightened to be us. That's our problem.

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Cinzia

Obviously I think feeling Welsh is the problem. When we know who we are, we can see what we want and why Westminster can't give it to us. Without Welshness we're just common or garden British.

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CapM

There are lots of ways that people define their Welshness perhaps the only universal one is that we all know that we're not English. Is constructing what would in effect be a sort of tick list of Welshness necessary or even desirable. Even if such a list could be agreed upon it would probably inevitably lead to the creation of a hierarchy of Welshness and the unhelpfulness that would bring. It seems like an extra hurdle we'd be putting in front of our route to independence. Why not put the effort into going directly into the formation of a tick list of what we want and highlight those ambitions that can only be achieved by being independent and not being part of the UK.

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In reply to CapM

Cinzia

You have clearly missed the main thrust of the article. By a country mile.

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In reply to Cinzia

CapM

Missed by a country mile. Really? You make the point that Welshness can have numerous facets and you point out they can even contradict each other. A trivial example you gave was ';it’s loving/hating Gavin & Stacey', but there are obviously ones that are much more significant. You posed the question- 'How do we create a narrative of Welshness that we can display in six minutes?' and concluded that 'Until we have that, until we have some unified idea of what it is to be Welsh,.......we cannot start to fully realise the argument for nationhood.' My point is that's much easier said than done and that we don't have to wait until it is agreed [if it even can be] before coming up with and implementing ideas on how our country needs to be managed economically and politically.

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In reply to CapM

Cinzia

You seem to think I'm supporting some kind of government survey! The point is that it is overlapping constellations of concepts of what we are, not ten things on a tick list and not what we are not. Those constellations give shape to concepts like liberty, sharing, nurturing, collectivism... I don't mean you have to have any one thing to be Welsh. Its how any group creates identity. England would do well to do the same!

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In reply to Cinzia

CapM

I haven’t made any reference or even alluded to 'some kind of government survey'. Making our history from our perspectives accessible to all is probably the best way of making your question ‘are we Welsh enough?’ redundant.  People could take what they like from our history, but I think that overall it would also have a positive effect on the part of the ‘overlapping constellation of concepts’ that relates to independence.  Daps and rissoles etc are examples of ephemera which tends not to be particularly Welsh .To illustrate, the word daps most likely has an origin in the West Country of England and rissoles are also plentiful in the chip shops of northern England. 

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Idris

A very ethno nationalist article from Dr Yates, straight out of the Trump, Farage and Orban guide books.

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In reply to Idris

Cinzia

I'm an ethnomusicologist, not an ethnonationalist. How you take 'having views on Gavin & Stacy' and get to Trump is some impressive mental gymnastics. The article suggest the direct opposite of an ethno nationalist view.

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Annibendod

I think you need to look at the influence of anglo-supremacy/exceptionalism on the Welsh cultural psyche. I've not seen a significant fraction of Welsh people denying that they are Welsh - I do see a significant portion with that "recieved wisdom" (a euphemism for bs?) that Wales is inadequate.

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In reply to Annibendod

Cinzia

But that would be Wales defining itself in opposition, which is what the article argues against. We need to be confident in what we are, not what we we're not. Thats how to decouple thought from the BritNat propaganda... other countries exist perfectly happily without comparing themselves to anyone else. They just get on and do their thing.

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In reply to Cinzia

Annibendod

No, not in opposition. That's the "As long as we beat the English" kind of cultural facet. That's not what I'm getting at. I'm talking about those who are at ease with their Welshness as a national or cultural signifier but are emotionally attached to a swaddling anglo-British construct. I advocate a confident and constructive democratic Welsh nationhood alongside a pluralist British, European and World view. That's the change I want to see. Not only do we need a positive transformation on our attitudes towards our Welshness but the whole of Britain needs to reconstruct what it means to be British. The empire is dead. We are not one nation. Rebuild our historic nations and build new democratic structures that reflect that reality and serve our needs. Confident Welshness, British Pluralism, European and Internationalist outlook. That's what I'm aiming for.

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Neil Anderson

The failure of the nation state is writ large cross the globe. Those nation states deny us our singular, regional, provincial and local identities. They make major wars possible but which we can not afford, legitimising the destruction of other people in other villages in other states. They damage our environments for purportedly overwhelming reasons of the national economy or the national interest or the national security or the national good or some other national nonsense. They attack the common law of personal rights and leave us only with responsibilities to the nation, meaning to them. They attempt to suborn the personal. They promote the large-scale while we are small-scale, mere individuals, cogs in their machines. They exploit our labour and commoditise our resources. They have helped recreate a ruling elite of exports and imports to flavour their tables, but not ours. They have undermined our cultures, replacing a rich tapestry with the bland sanctioned uniformity of brands. But the nation state has become unaffordable, burdened with the everlasting debt of a damaged world, damaged societies, damaged people - for the national good. They have poisoned our air, water and soil with pesticides, micro plastics and everlasting chemicals. They have poisoned us. It cannot endure, but we must, despite them. Your article, Cinza, reminds us of the many other struggles elsewhere and here at home. But there is a commonality among us all, which I believe seeks freedom, equity and peace. In thinking about our economy or our society or our cultures, we need to remind ourselves, what are they for? Are they for us, or are they for them? As the wisdom of the ages tells us, there are clearly larger matters than just money. Will we ever learn...?

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Walter Hunt

There was a time when Welshness meant chapel-going, non-conformist, singing miners, voting Liberal and rural sheep farming. Of course, Wales was in reality much more diverse. To escape its doom-loop, Wales need to embrace change, not merely accept it. Wales must establish itself as place where people stay or come to to make a difference. Without Welsh Citizenship, wins are wins for “Team GB” and the lifting effect on the national psyche is diminished. Wales needs to set and see success in national rejuvenation projects.

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John Ellis

'How do we create a narrative of Welshness that we can display in six minutes? Until we have that, until we have some unified idea of what it is to be Welsh, some common concepts that are all about what we are and not what we are not, we cannot start to fully realise the argument for nationhood.' As someone brought up in England's north-west but having spent much of my life living and working in Wales, it's long seemed to me that the hard realities of Wales's physical geography have been and still remain a major obstacle when it comes to developing 'some unified idea of what it is to be Welsh'. When I lived in Newport, Bristol was way more accessible than most of the rest of Wales. When I lived in Radnorshire, the same was true of Hereford. And now that I live in Denbighshire, Chester's the place. None of that necessarily negates a sense of 'what it is to be Welsh'. But what it seems to me to do is to hinder the evolution of a 'some unified idea of what it is to be Welsh'. With the seemingly inescapable consequence that we're stuck with essentially regional notions of Welshness.

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CapM

Cymru has no more a difficulty in developing, or to be correct maintaining a unified idea of what it is to be Welsh than England and Scotland have with being English or Scottish, It takes more time and is more difficult to get around the regions of England and Scotland. Quickest train journey from Hereford to Cromer takes six and a half hours with four changes Quickest train journey from Cardiff to Llandudno is four hours with one change or four and a quarter direct This argument that Cymru is ill matched to be unified because of it's geography is a criticism used by opponents not just of independence but of Cymru being an entity different to and separate from England. Those that are sympathetic to Cymru and increased self government must be ignorant of the many examples of nation states that exist and function with much greater challenges from geography and population. Perhaps lacking sufficient knowledge and understanding to realise the extent of similarities but having just enough to be able to pick up on differences. Divide and rule by some, Divide and discourage by others.

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John Ellis

I take your point to some degree, insofar as Scotland indeed doesn't seem to manifest the 'symptoms' to which I've alluded to quite the same degree as seems - to me at least - to be the case in Wales. But even in Scotland certain of the same factors seem to be pertinent. I hesitate to even appear dogmatic about Scotland, given that my direct experience of that country is pretty much zilch and I don't follow internal Scottish political trends with any particular closeness. But I have noticed some seemingly significant indications that their 'northern isles' furthest distant from the central belt - Orkney and Shetland - have exhibited a rather similar dissociation from the concept of a unified 'Scottishness' to that which I've experienced from some Welsh folk around the idea of a solidly-based overall Welsh national identity. Presumably the northern isles' historic association with Scandinavia rather than with Scotland has some bearing on that; certainly the SNP appears not to have generated much voter enthusiasm in that neck of the woods. Moreover, Scotland doesn't seem to manifest the same degree of geographical hindrances to a psychology of solid national unity. OK, much of its further north is remote and mountainous, but nonetheless all their southward lines of communication, whether road or rail, lead south into the central belt in which Edinburgh, their historic capital, is located - well before the border with England is reached. Which isn't true of Wales. Personally I'm absolutely an advocate of greater Welsh autonomy, and I'm by no means averse to the idea of ultimate Welsh independence - not least because it seems to me that the UK as an entity is on the road to gradual decline, largely because too many English folk seem unable to accept that Britain's no longer the world power that it was in the high Victorian era. And I can see that Ireland has ultimately made quite a successful go of independence. So why not Wales? The trouble with that is that Ireland endured around half a century of economic privation before ordinary people's standards of living ultimately took an upturn from the 1970s onwards. I've got family by marriage in south-eastern Ireland and have stayed there quite a few times; and my impression is that there was sufficient long-standing discontent among ordinary Irish folk about their history as a part of the UK that, on the whole, they were ready to grin and bear all that. And thus far I'm less than convinced, on the evidence that I've seen in Wales over the years - and I first came to live here as a student way back in 1964 - that most folk living in Wales are discontented enough to risk taking the Irish road. At least, thus far.

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In reply to John Ellis

CapM

'I hesitate to even appear dogmatic about Scotland, given that my direct experience of that country is pretty much zilch' Yet your zilch direct experience of Scotland doesn't cause you to hesitate for a moment before giving an account of your opinion of the state Scotland's unity and how it compare's to that of Cymru. You say that you have direct experience of living in Cymru though what you say doesn't go any further than the usual conclusions drawn by many newcomers from England who are also often under the misapprehension that they've identified issues that the natives aren't aware of. People here are well aware of the lack of internal transport infrastructure and the draw of English cities near the Welsh border. It's not something we need recent arrivals or returnees to lecture on.

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In reply to CapM

John Ellis

'Yet your zilch direct experience of Scotland doesn’t cause you to hesitate for a moment before giving an account of your opinion of the state Scotland’s unity ...' No, it doesn't; because I'm relying on at least two news/opinion items in the UK media which I've read across the last decade and a half - which appeared to have been written up by journalists 'in the know' - and which reported on the degree of detachment exhibited by a lot of average folk in Scotland's northern isles in their attitude towards government from Holyrood. And since those far northern islands have stuck with voting Lib Dem and that's true of the far north of the Scottish mainland as well, possibly the same instincts apply there too? It surely can't still be the fading charisma of the late Charles Kennedy, can it? But in the absence both of direct personal experience and awareness of opinions from those qualified to offer them, I'm in no position to speculate. As to your imputation that I'm a recent arrival or returnee, I've reached the age of 79 now, and very slightly less than half of my adult life has been spent living and working in Wales. And in a variety of different parts, from Ceredigion in the south-west to two different urban areas on the Bristol Channel coast, a spell in the Gwent valleys and a time living in the old Radnorshire on the Herefordshire/Shropshire borders, and, finally and currently, in the north-east. I got about, in the context of my job; and, having put down roots here, wanted, post-retirement, to return while I still could. Hiraeth, I suppose. And while I absolutely acknowledge - and welcome! - the fact that a more distinctive 'Welsh consciousness' has emerged widely in this country during the sixty years since I first came to live in Wales, I don't see, among the folk that I've known across all those years and still know now, the same acceptance of the notion of complete independence which seemed to me during my visits there to be simply 'accepted wisdom' among people in the Irish Republic during my various visits there. Which isn't at all to say that it can't and won't come to pass here in Wales in the course of time.

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In reply to John Ellis

CapM

'I’m relying on at least two news/opinion items in the UK media which I’ve read across the last decade and a half ' An average of an item every seven and a half years then. Maybe as you've spent half your life in England you could give your opinion on how unified or not that country is, it's English consciousness and what is it about the English that makes so many of them averse to England becoming an independent country. By comparing your experiences in both countries and any news/opinion pieces you've read perhaps you could opine on which country is more unified/conscious of a common identity/ accepting of the notion of complete independence for itself. Or is it only Cymru that is to be subject to your sctutiny.

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In reply to CapM

John Ellis

'Maybe as you’ve spent half your life in England you could give your opinion on how unified or not that country is.' For sure I could - with the reservation that while I've lived in various diverse parts of Wales over the years during which I've been here, my direct experience of England is more limited - in that my entire time there was spent living a few miles south of Manchester. That's where I grew up, and that's where I returned in the mid-'80s to keep an eye on my very elderly dad, who had no living family other than me. Using my perception of the psychology of average Mancunians as a guide, I'd that there's definitely a sense in which England isn't unified. The notion that 'the north' is treated as England's poor relation is long-standing and widespread. Manchester, these days quite a flourishing place, probably has less solid cause to nurture that sentiment than more deprived places not too far away from it - Oldham or Burnley, for instance. But it makes no difference: Mancs do generally feel different from the folk who live 'down south' and they reckon that London and the south-east in general get more favoured consideration by the Westminster powers-that-be. Despite all that 'London-scepticism' and the resultant resentment which accompanies it, though, my sense was that they're still very much invested in the notion of Britain and of England - they tend not to dwell on the difference! - and on its institutions: the monarchy, Parliament, &c. And I detected no great appetite for devolution as a means to give 'the north' more of a say in its own affairs, though of course Greater Manchester has experienced a fair amount more of that since I returned to Wales. So for sure there's a divide within England, but not enough of one to shake the foundations of a more basic sense of unity. And, despite it all, there's still a sense that London, with its long history, ought to be the capital - even when Mancs resent its perceived perks. I've never had much of a sense that your average Welsh person - at least those who live, say, north of Brecon - holds that sentiment in respect of Cardiff.

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In reply to John Ellis

CapM

So you have only direct experience of one part of the north of England. Have you considered that your limited experience of the regions of England should limit your confidence of the soundness of your opinions on how identity etc in Cymru compares to England. My guess is that you haven't. Regarding your opinion on how Cardiff is viewed by people north of Brecon. it looks to me that you know the Cymry far less well than you think you do. To me your opinions look those of someone looking in from the position of an outsider regardless of location.

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In reply to CapM

John Ellis

Such confidence as I have about the political psyche of people in Wales - which I'll readily admit is by no means wholly unbounded - derives from having lived and worked over the years in a wide variety of different parts of this country. But nonetheless it's given me an impression. Maybe you'd care to share detail as to how many different parts of Wales you've experienced, first hand? We might perhaps then find ourselves on an equal playing field.

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In reply to John Ellis

CapM

Have you wondered that this impression might be one constrained by an expat mindset.

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In reply to CapM

John Ellis

Always a possibility: I'll never be 'Welsh born and bred', however long I live here. On the other hand, back at the very end of June I abandoned my initial intention of voting Labour on 4th July specifically as a consequence of Jo Stevens's seemingly brisk dismissal of the notion of further devolution to Wales, and I stuck with Plaid Cymru, as I've generally done in past years. You'll have to judge for yourself.

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In reply to John Ellis

CapM

It isn't a case of how long you've lived here but as I said of mindset. I'll 'judge',if that's the right term on what you said. Voting Plaid was because Drakeford wouldn't be first Minister and so there wouldn't be someone who you thought could and would stand up to a UK Labour government. Why you would think that Drakeford could or would act as an effective shield is another matter.

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In reply to CapM

John Ellis

July 4th last was a Westminster election and, in that context, whether or not Mark Drakeford was or wasn't first minister in Wales is wholly immaterial. So I don't see your point.

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In reply to John Ellis

CapM

You've forgotten the point you made. https://nation.cymru/news/shadow-welsh-secretary-criticised-after-patronising-and-contemptuous-s4c-interview/ Where you say 'If Drakeford hadn’t stood down as first minister and in the light of the voting history of my local area,, I might well have voted for Labour simply in the belief that he was committed to devolution and wasn’t likely to be any sort of patsy to those, in his own party or outside of it, who would seek to chip away at the the devolution settlement.'

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In reply to CapM

John Ellis

Not at all. Before July 4th dawned, Drakeford had gone and Jo Stevens had indicated that the further devolution of which he'd been a committed advocate wouldn't be on the Starmer government's agenda. In those changed circumstances a vote for Labour seemed no longer an option.

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In reply to John Ellis

CapM

Your comment in June 'If Drakeford hadn’t stood down as first minister and in the light of the voting history of my local area,, I might well have voted for Labour simply in the belief that he was committed to devolution and wasn’t likely to be any sort of patsy to those, in his own party or outside of it, who would seek to chip away at the the devolution settlement.’ My commment yesterday- 'you[ John Ellis} said. Voting Plaid was because Drakeford wouldn’t be first Minister and so there wouldn’t be someone who you thought could and would stand up to a UK Labour government Your response 'Not at all.'  Those three words reveal a lot about how you engage in a discussion.

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In reply to CapM

John Ellis

Once Drakeford had opted to step down and was replaced, serially, by two successive Labour MS's - first Gething and then Morgan - who appeared to be more in the mould of Labour apparatchiks less independently minded than he was; and then when Stevens, rather brusquely and de haut en bas, dismissed any idea of furthering Welsh devolution more along the lines of patterns already established in Scotland and Northern Ireland, there no longer seemed to me to be much to be said for lending my vote to Labour this time round.

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Padi Phillips

Hereford to Cromer is 321 miles while Cardiff to Llandudno is 185 miles. The rail journey to Llandudno is also all on mainline whereas a significant part of the journey to Cromer is on branch lines as Norwich declined connection to mainline services in the mid 19th century but in the 1870s decided it wanted connection to the railway network, and so the line was implemented and included connection to Cromer. So the comparison is not a good one. It's also relevant that in order to travel between Cardiff and Llandudno a significant part of the journey has to take place in England, partly as a result of Cymru's difficult geography. Traditionally Cymru has been divided by its topography and this has made national unity difficult to achieve. Psychologically Llandudno seem a very long way away from Cardiff. It's not so much that Cymru is 'ill matched' to be an independent country, but rather the nature of communications from Roman times to the present being on an east-west axis with no genuine north-south communications in terms of road or rail. The A470 exists as the result of a campaign by the Western Mail, and dates from 1979.

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In reply to Padi Phillips

CapM

It takes longer to get from one extreme of England to another than it does in Cymru. It would be good to have better transport infrastructure within Cymru but the current situation as it is not the game breaker as so many anti Welsh independence and [anti Cymru as one country] would have it.

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