Row breaks out over Welsh Secretary's cost of independence claims

Don't believe the ONS figures. I'm a Scot, I live in a country that had more oil and gas than Norway, yet according to UK government figures my country has been a parasite on the UK, needing financial support to keep us in the relative poverty we are used to. Do you remember how they hid the McCrone report about how rich Scotland would be? Remember how in 2014 they said there was no oil left and Scotland would be a basket case? They do this all the time. Both Cymru and Scotland need to be brave, we need our independence, and we need it now.

Many past UK politicians warned against and poured scorn on many countries of the British Empire that favoured independence for their own country that was later gained (e.g., Ireland and Malta). Our Welsh Secretary, Jo Stevens, is emulating them by denigrating any aspirations of Wales wanting independence quoting a spurious cost of £21bn. She never mentions the cost of remaining in the UK. The UK government debt is now £2,729.6bn. With a population of 66.9m this equates to a massive £39,218 per person (90.5% of GDP). Wales would surely do better than this, especially in the long-term.  

Hahaha coming from Jo I've done nothing for Cymru Stevens

Labour loves to throw smoke and mirror figures in the hope that it will frighen the natives into submission.

Yeah. Typical language of an abusive relationship - 'you'll never survive without me.'

When it comes to 'independence' it is never an economic decision, it is a Values decision. Of course we would all be better off if one small team governed everyone in the world by way of a benevolent monarchy, there would be moral offsets and not everyone would be treated equally, but most would certainly end up richer. The problem is that... most people put a high value on other things, like the right to self determination, to choose to work together to achieve common objectives or individually, they might want to protect the environment where as another group of people might want to industrialize it. Welsh Independence, Scottish Independence and Brexit (somewhat) are not based on economics, they are based on how we feel and the lives we want to lead. I'm pro-Brexit, but I'm also pro-Common Market (it's what we originally voted for), I don't think we should have extended the amount of leverage to the EU that we did. We are... marginally, economically poorer for it (the EU isn't doing so hot either) but now we have the freedom to do things differently (setting aside the fact that the last government and this government doesn't really want to). I'm also pro-Welsh Independence and pro-Scottish Independence for the same reasons. It is right for the people of Wales to have the right to self determination, to distribute its own money and resources as it chooses, even if there would be fewer resources to go around. We could, under our own sovereignty, do better... whether we will or will not do better is a matter for the future electorate to decide. So the Welsh Secretary is right, it will cost money, lots of money and we might be poorer for it... but... isn't it worth it? We get to protect and promote our own cultural identity, we get to work on projects we want to work on and set rules of our own choosing.

Jacob Rees Mogg who to be fair has always had Wales best interests close to his heart has urged Tories in the Caerphilly by Election to consider voting Reform to keep the “separatists” out. I’d rather support a so called separatist Party than a racist one

Westminster obviously threatened with independence.

In the summer of last year I was initially tempted to cast my vote for Labour, simply because in the context of the voting history of the Westminster constituency in which I currently live a vote for Labour seemed the best way to ensure that another Tory was not yet again elected to represent our patch. Certain disobliging words from Jo Stevens in the last couple of weeks before that election prompted me to change my mind, with the consequence that I decided to cast my vote for Plaid. This latest expression of opinion from Ms Stevens reinforces my sense that, back then, I made the right decision.

Please leave now Jo. You have been useless for Wales.

I dont believe you or Labour

There is nothing in the HOC Library reply to Liz Saville Roberts that shows that Welsh finances would be better under independence, only that they would be different. They could even be worse. As the response says, that would depend on policy choices and the terms of separation, which I do not expect to be generous. Plaid Cymru will have to do better than this to convince the people of Wales that our prospects for jobs, pensions, services and taxes would improve under independence.

People who argue that Wales couldn’t go it alone need to know that UK plc is 3 trillion in debt it’s effectively bankrupt a failed state

Labour have assisted the British government stealing from Wales and then lying to us for decades. Why would this speech be any different?

First off no country has the RIGHT TO RULE ANOTHER COUNTRY England conquered Wales that is no bloody different today than what Russia is trying to do and Jo Stevens should keep her mouth shut English people always say they keep us and Scotland if that was so and we would be a drain on English money they would have got rid off us out of the U K there is nothing in the U K for Wales

What a rubbish report! Where's the back up to those figures? How do we know exactly what is included? How was oil & gas distributed geographically? Someone has just thrown a load of numbers at some tables without any evidence or detail!

Secretary of State for Cymru = Cymru's worst enemy.

Maybe HM Treasury should focus on using its iron first control of the UK economy to get all parts of the UK economy punching above their weight instead of abusing this power to enrich its own patch and gaslighting the rest.

Those with imperial mindsets always presume that the colonized’s priorities will be the same as their own – a preoccupation with material gains and losses. But they are mistaken. Peoples value freedom in its own right, and if the time is right, they will sometimes go for it anyway irrespective of whether or not it will bring them immediate comfort or advantage. History testifies to this being true throughout the centuries. Ireland under continued British rule would have stayed on its knees for ever. Wales now has to contemplate throwing off its own shackles of dependency if it wants regain its dignity and join the family of nations. 

Since the end of WWII 65 countries have gained their independence from Britain, very many of these poor, dependendent, as a result of colonial exploitation. However none of them to date have asked to be returned under British rule.

We need an independent body/auditor to analyse the full costs of independence - for good or for bad. I don't see how our weak economy and productivity could support us as an independent nation (even with the Crown Estate etc) but I would love to be convinced otherwise. Oh, and don't forget that, yes, the UK government is in huge debt but just because we declare independence it doesn't mean that we are not liable for some of that too. Crackers to think Westminster (or any international court) would let us flounce off unburdened.

Labour UK can't even agree on the figure, Starmer quoted £7000 earlier today. either way the figures are rigged, they don't take into account, that an independent Wales would charge market value for water going over the border, all surplus energy would be sold to the highest bidder rather than being given away for free, all money raised by crown estate in Wales would stay here, all taxes raised here would stay here Wales would also stop paying for English infrastructure projects and other non devolved payments and an independent Wales could raise its own debt just like every other independent country